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Old 05-27-2014, 08:35 PM
 
883 posts, read 3,711,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowmylawn View Post
The Teacher's Union is hugely powerful here in NYS and no one will challenge the status quo. Just look at how much they (the teachers and administrators) are making. It's flippin' huge compared any other state.
I don't have a comparison for the admin salaries, but do you really think what the teachers in NYS make is *flippin huge compared to any other state*? Tell me you think teachers in Mass, DC, CT, Cali, NJ, etc are all overpaid too- fine, I can respect your opinion. But I just don't see the difference in salaries btwn NYS & the states I mentioned as being *flippin huge*.

How much teachers get paid — state by state - The Washington Post
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:13 PM
 
519 posts, read 595,653 times
Reputation: 471
It's no where near $100k or $150k a student. Districts average about double to triple over general ed costs. Something like $11k general, $29k special instructional costs. A chunk of that is recouped through federal & state funds.

That's not the main point. The idea is you want as many kids out of special ed services and into general ed; To be self-sufficient productive members of society when they leave school. Otherwise, we're all paying $90k a year per person for the rest of their lives on welfare, medicaid, social security, food stamps, etc etc etc. Not even including the productivity lost by that person. It's money well-spent.

If you're that miserable in life where you need to make up numbers and complain about services for kids with special needs, that's the big green light to move down south with all the other losers.
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:16 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
5,345 posts, read 3,850,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
It's no where near $100k per student. Districts average about double to triple over general ed costs. Something like $11k general, $29k special instructional costs. A chunk of that is recouped through federal & state funds.

That's not the main point. The idea is you want as many kids out of special ed services and into general ed; To be self-sufficient productive members of society when they leave school. Otherwise, we're all paying $90k a year per person for the rest of their lives on welfare, medicaid, social security, food stamps, etc etc etc. Not even including the productivity lost by that person. It's money well-spent.

If you're that miserable in life where you need to make up numbers and bash services for kids with special needs, that's the big green light to move down south with all the other losers.
2+2 Howard Beale? If not, you likely won't understand the question...apologies in that case.
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:26 PM
 
519 posts, read 595,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
2+2 Howard Beale? If not, you likely won't understand the question...apologies in that case.
Five?
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:32 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
5,345 posts, read 3,850,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
Five?
Haha, fair answer. Guess "Howard Beale" is a popular handle these days. I was referring to this site...not even sure if the link will stand as per city-data regulations:


Poker Strategy - Two Plus Two Poker & Gaming Strategy

I used to post on the forums there, and there was another poster with the same pseudonym as yours. Google tells me it's a character name from a movie from 1976, ten years before I was born.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:03 AM
 
413 posts, read 597,117 times
Reputation: 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
It's no where near $100k or $150k a student. Districts average about double to triple over general ed costs. Something like $11k general, $29k special instructional costs. A chunk of that is recouped through federal & state funds.

That's not the main point. The idea is you want as many kids out of special ed services and into general ed; To be self-sufficient productive members of society when they leave school. Otherwise, we're all paying $90k a year per person for the rest of their lives on welfare, medicaid, social security, food stamps, etc etc etc. Not even including the productivity lost by that person. It's money well-spent.

If you're that miserable in life where you need to make up numbers and complain about services for kids with special needs, that's the big green light to move down south with all the other losers.

Reading comprehension 101, Howie. No one complained about services. Just pointed out the costs are high and the thread is about CONSOLIDATION, not special ed services. But since you went there, that $29k number is a cute "average" and I thoroughly am unconvinced it's accurate. Do you know the tuition rates for Eden II, Henry Viscardi, Mill Neck and other full time facilities? Full time nursing per student? Transportation? Easily over $100k per student in many cases. It's not just some kids in a special classroom. Most go to specialized facilities outside the district and the district pays all the costs. Yes they get some back in State and Fed aid and Medicaid but it's cash flow from the district's budget and in fact most have to hire 3rd party Medicaid Management consultants to get their reimbursements at all (and in reasonable time) which is also part of the special ed budget. It's worth every penny to give these kids as full a life and potential for success as possible but sadly many of them will never be self-sufficient or productive members of society and will always be on some public assistance. In your usual daft condescending way you can't separate that someone can be all for taking care of every kid as best as possible and STILL take issue with lawyers and doctors mandating extravagant IEP's that line their pockets without necessarily being in the child's best interest and the district's having little will to stop it (or correct it at all). That's where it comes back to actual dollars and not just your holier than though insipid guilt trip "if you don't like special ed you should move south with the losers." There are many highly compensated advocates for the kids. There is no one advocating for the districts because of fear of just the kind of smear you tried to pull with your guilt trip post.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:40 AM
 
519 posts, read 595,653 times
Reputation: 471
Quote:
Originally Posted by marigold69 View Post
Reading comprehension 101, Howie. No one complained about services. Just pointed out the costs are high and the thread is about CONSOLIDATION, not special ed services. But since you went there, that $29k number is a cute "average" and I thoroughly am unconvinced it's accurate. Do you know the tuition rates for Eden II, Henry Viscardi, Mill Neck and other full time facilities? Full time nursing per student? Transportation? Easily over $100k per student in many cases. It's not just some kids in a special classroom. Most go to specialized facilities outside the district and the district pays all the costs. Yes they get some back in State and Fed aid and Medicaid but it's cash flow from the district's budget and in fact most have to hire 3rd party Medicaid Management consultants to get their reimbursements at all (and in reasonable time) which is also part of the special ed budget. It's worth every penny to give these kids as full a life and potential for success as possible but sadly many of them will never be self-sufficient or productive members of society and will always be on some public assistance. In your usual daft condescending way you can't separate that someone can be all for taking care of every kid as best as possible and STILL take issue with lawyers and doctors mandating extravagant IEP's that line their pockets without necessarily being in the child's best interest and the district's having little will to stop it (or correct it at all). That's where it comes back to actual dollars and not just your holier than though insipid guilt trip "if you don't like special ed you should move south with the losers." There are many highly compensated advocates for the kids. There is no one advocating for the districts because of fear of just the kind of smear you tried to pull with your guilt trip post.
What's cute about it?
https://reportcards.nysed.gov/files/...0205030000.pdf

Now where's your proof it's "easily over $100k per student"??

You act as if general ed students don't have transportation costs, building costs, summer programs, electives, sports, most of the debt costs...


You want daft, condescending, ignorant? look no further than these quotes-

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirtiger View Post

I know I maybe flamed for this. Also the budget for special needs students are really out of control. SD in general are obsessed with testing kids & catering to every little issues with ever ballooning budgets. I remember reading how special needs students easily cost 100k plus per child....sometimes far far more. I heard as high as 150k per child. All this is very burdensome for the school budget.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marigold69 View Post
Nothing all that erroneous in his post. Mandated IEP services are a major money pit. No district has the testicular fortitude to argue any doctor/parent proposed service. It's a political quagmire. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I've seen IEP's specify a kid go to a speech or PT specialist in Rockland County on a school bus BY THEMSELVES, paid for by the district due to the IEP. As though there is no qualified specialist locally. Pretty much anything a parent desires and a doctor will sign off on must be provided by the district's Spec Ed/PPS department. $100k doesn't sound far fetched at all. Some kids are getting $10k in transportation alone, forget about all the other professional services (OT, PT, Speech, Tutoring, In Home services, Nursing, Interpreting, tuition at special schools, on and on). I don't begrudge serving kids most in need but denying it's a HUGE piece of the budget problem is either naive or just plain ignorant.

In fact, Spec Ed/PPS services is one place where consolidation COULD save some serious money. More centralized/shared services would mean fewer rubber stamped professional service contracts and blank checks to service providers...and unnecessary trips to Rockland County.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twingles View Post
I know someone whose autistic kids go to summer camp, all summer, all day, all paid for by the school district because they "need" it. It costs a fortune.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:22 AM
 
Location: new yawk zoo
8,647 posts, read 11,021,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
You won't get flamed because you're obviously ignorant on the subject.
Obviously you are clueless.

I have a close relative who is severely autistic who lives in Westchester. Their town didn't offer special services so they had to have a special bus that picks up a handful of kids to transport them to another town. Their resident town reimburse that town to accommodate him. There are afterschool and even weekend services for some students. The cost? $150,000+ per year to be reimbursed. I saw the bill with my own eyes. Does every special services cost that much? Of course not. Every student is evaluated & treated on a case by case. Its real money billed to the tax payer. Should be go back to the old days of dumping all the special needs kids at a mental institution? Of course not.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:29 AM
 
Location: new yawk zoo
8,647 posts, read 11,021,603 times
Reputation: 6307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
. Districts average about double to triple over general ed costs. Something like $11k general, $29k special instructional costs. A chunk of that is recouped through federal & state funds.
NYC school is about 19 grand per student. My SD of Manhasset is well over 30 grand per student. 80% of the teachers make over 100 grand a year. Quite a few make over 120 grand a year...to be fair many of those have put in well over 20-25 years of service.

Per Student Public Education Spending Decreases in 2011 for First Time in Nearly Four Decades, Census Bureau Reports - Governments - Newsroom - U.S. Census Bureau

Quote:
Originally Posted by marigold69 View Post
Reading comprehension 101, Howie. No one complained about services. Just pointed out the costs are high and the thread is about CONSOLIDATION, not special ed services..
That is correct. He can't read. I wasn't complaining about it. Cost of special services is one of the top reason why school taxes are very high. Its is just a statement, nothing more.

here is an example right off random article.
Quote:
For example, several local school districts have deaf or hard-of-hearing students who are transported to Pittsburgh to attend the Western Pennsylvania School for the Deaf. School districts pay the cost of transportation, along with the tuition - which, for the five-day residential program, costs $93,430.

Last edited by sirtiger; 05-28-2014 at 08:37 AM..
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:35 AM
 
413 posts, read 597,117 times
Reputation: 433
I generally agree and don't want to get into an argument over taking care of kids but I have 1st hand knowledge of the costs. At a $29k average we are factoring in the majority of kids who just need special help for mild learning disabilities. On "average" many are somewhere on the autism spectrum and require modest services, mostly behavioral and tutoring. There are also a large number requiring much more intensive care. School year tuition at Eden II day program is $55k, summer tuition is $28k, full time nurse is $1600/wk, behavioral consultant at $160 per hr, transportation, tutoring, OT, PT thousands more. We have at least 30 kids in the district who go to intensive day programs. It's well over $100k per child. I'm not arguing. I'm just stating a fact. Realize though that a lawyer/mediator is at every parent-district meeting and gets paid. Evaluations are mandated and must be paid for by the district. It's a difficult situation. We all want to provide the best for the kids but the costs do spiral out of control. My only beef is that the fear of appearing even the slightest bit insensitive stymies the districts from trying to contain those costs. Even auditors (from the smallest right up to the state comptroller) don't want to stick their nose in Special Ed spending, it's a political minefield. I honestly believe as taxpayers we are proud to do right by these kids and the parents are appreciative, but there is a definite adversarial relationship between the IEP developers and the districts. They see an endless revenue stream while the taxpayers and Cuomo are forcing the district to hold the line. Have you EVER heard a politician, school admin or anyone (except ME, maybe, lol) talk publicly about containing spiraling special ed costs?! It's rare. I admit it's a difficult situation. I still believe it's a good place for some consolidation. Each district is doing separate RFP's for Spec Ed Related Services and this could be more centralized with more standardized pricing and lower administrative costs. It's not about local control as these providers are generally out of district anyway.
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