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God bless him. Its time the liberal retards get a dose of their own medicine, Im tired of having to accept gay rights, muslim rights, and all this other bs going on in a country I served, I will be accepting to your beliefs even though mine differ, but wil you be accepting to mine?
The flag of the confederacy is a flag of treason against the United States. The country you served. Inescapable fact.
This issue is about more than a flag. It's about hate, domination and POWER. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia - aka the Confederate Flag, a flag as I understand has been hijacked by racists groups and is not itself inherently racist. While I acknowledge that people are free to utilize this flag (thanks to the First Amendment) those same people must acknowledge all the views that flag has been used to represent. Just like you can't separate the swastika from the Holocaust, you cannot separate confederate battle flag from slavery and white supremacy.
If you want to fly that flag all day long that is YOUR right but others have the right to call that flag what it is, a symbol of racism. The one thing I believe is that it should never be flown on government properties or buildings. I don't want my tax dollars supporting hate.
You bring up an interesting point. As you note, the flag was _hijacked_ by racist groups and is not itself inherently racist.
The problem, IMO, is that we allow random groups to redefine words and symbols. If someone is perverting the use of a "symbol," that is wrong. It doesn't invalidate other meanings of the symbol, nor does it invalidate the reasons another group may use that same symbol.
It is a slippery slope, especially in an age where people are so easily offended. We have already seen assaults on symbols with any kind of religious connotations "offending" groups of people. Are you or I eventually going to be shamed into not wearing a cross or star of David because some group has decided those symbols are offensive, or symbolize hate? Does a Christian cross only symbolize the Spanish Inquisition? How many people do we need to get on board to where we can "tell" society that is what the cross represents? The group with the best PR department should not get to decide what other's symbols mean.
I don't believe that government properties are/were flying that flag to promote any kind of hate. They were flying it to honor the proud parts of their heritage (and I do NOT mean anything connected with slavery, which I hope we can all agree is inherently evil). If you choose to see it in another way that is your choice - there are many disagreements over how tax dollars are spent.
Looked at another way... If you decide to view this, or any other symbol, in a negative way you should remember the Santayana quote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
We cannot erase the negative parts of our past, nor can we change what some people feel or believe by taking away a symbol.
A local government that is supposed to represent all of their citizens is flying a flag that has divided this country and it's people for generations. How are the people of the State supposed to trust their representatives have their best interests at heart??? Germany had sense enough to put the swastika where it belongs...in a museum. It's time for the Confederacy flag to take it's place in a museum too.
The Irish and many poor immigrants came to this country of their own volition...they were not sold like chattel, killed for sport and had their families parceled out like the commodity this country thought they were. Let's not go down this road OK. Black people were property, plain and simple...with no rights and weren't even considered to be human beings.
Seriously? Perhaps you were too wrapped up in Black history to explore Irish history.
Quote:
In his article, John Martin writes “The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70 percent of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves.â€
“Ireland quickly became the biggest source of human livestock for English merchants. The majority of the early slaves to the New World were actually white.â€
Martin writes how at the hands of the British, the Irish population plummeted due to the slave trade of the 17th century.
“During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, [Oliver] Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.â€
Martin goes on to explain that for some reason, the Irish slaves are often remembered as ‘indentured servants.’ However, in most cases during the 17th and 18th centuries, they were no more than “human cattle.â€
“...the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period,†writes Martin. “It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.â€
During the late 1600s, writes Martin, African slaves were far more expensive than their Irish counterparts - Africans would sell for around 50 sterling while Irish were often no more than 5 sterling.
The Irish were further exploited when the British began to “breed†Irish women - or girls, sometimes as young as 12 - with African males.
“These new “mulatto†slaves brought a higher price than Irish livestock and, likewise, enabled the settlers to save money rather than purchase new African slaves. This practice of breeding Irish females with African men went on for several decades and was so widespread that, in 1681, legislation was passed “forbidding the practice of mating Irish slave women to African slave men for the purpose of producing slaves for sale.†In short, it was stopped only because it interfered with the profits of a large slave transport company.
Martin concludes, “In 1839, Britain finally decided on it’s own to end its participation in Satan’s highway to hell and stopped transporting slaves. While their decision did not stop pirates from doing what they desired, the new law slowly concluded THIS chapter of nightmarish Irish misery.â€
A local government that is supposed to represent all of their citizens is flying a flag that has divided this country and it's people for generations. .
Are you talking Huntington? I think they removed the coat of arms but made no restrictions on individual Huntingtonians displaying it.
I stand corrected Oh Bee Have, and that situation is just as horrific! Being that my paternal grandfather was half Irish/German explains a lot. We are at this time discussing American History. If you want to start a thread on the Irish Experience I'd be happy to read and learn...btw my German-Irish great grandfather was disowned by his "proud Irish family" . When my oldest son was 12 we took a trip to England to visit family. That trip started my son's hobby (genealogy) and 2 years later we traced our family lineage back to Ireland and Germany. I have actually traveled to Dublin and Mountbellew to meet a few members of the family(on invitation)...let's just say the German family members were much nicer.
I am wrapped in Black History because it is my experience . My grandfather never talked about his father, other than he was a good family man and adored his children. My parents are here by way of Belize (British Honduras) and I think my paternal great grandfather worked the mahogany forests. I have 2 pictures of him...that's about it.
The Irish and many poor immigrants came to this country of their own volition...they were not sold like chattel, killed for sport and had their families parceled out like the commodity this country thought they were. Let's not go down this road OK. Black people were property, plain and simple...with no rights and weren't even considered to be human beings.
Before you claim a monopoly on suffering, you may want to brush up on your history. For starters, Oliver Cromwell had nothing to do with Irish Immigration. Nothing.
Before you claim a monopoly on suffering, you may want to brush up on your history. For starters, Oliver Cromwell had nothing to do with Irish Immigration. Nothing.
I never claimed to hold a monopoly on anything. I am just stating the experience a lot of African Americans have had and are still having in America.
A local government that is supposed to represent all of their citizens is flying a flag that has divided this country and it's people for generations. How are the people of the State supposed to trust their representatives have their best interests at heart???
There are many, many policies, programs, laws and symbols the government uses which divide people. Some much more harmful than a simple flag. It is impossible to get everyone to agree on everything.
Because I disagree with something the government does, does that mean they don't represent me? What if they agree with me - does that mean they no longer represent the people who disagree with my position?
I fully appreciate your position on the flag. To you, it has negative connotations. For me, it does not - it has some positive connotations (again, nothing to do with the evils of slavery). As both are personal perceptions, neither of us is wrong. There were slave owners in the north and south. The Civil War was not as simple as "everyone in the south was an evil slave owner and everyone in the north was a valiant emancipator" - despite what the revisionist view of history would like us to believe.
When it comes to a governmental policy, why does your opinion automatically count as "right?" Why is someone with a different view of the same symbol automatically your enemy? (no trust they have your best interests at heart.) Why is the current trend to demonize those with a different view or belief?
Unfortunately, I believe our elected representatives have only their own best interests at heart. Their only job is to get re-elected and insure job security for themselves and their friends.
I never claimed to hold a monopoly on anything. I am just stating the experience a lot of African Americans have had and are still having in America.
Sounds good. Sometimes by ignoring rabble rousers (American flag burners, nazi and confederate flag wavers, etc) you neuter them.
And BTW that southern church burning issue is a bit problematic. Some fairly serious folks have suggested the word hoax best describes any linkage to racism (you may want to google it...liberal orthodoxy notwithstanding).
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