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No, you've made it very clear that you're sore because these workers are seeking to negotiate a better deal than you have.
Is that why I mentioned earlier my company has members who've been trying to organize for years and I scoff at them equally? What do I stand to lose if I join them since they're protected? That tells you it's all about what they stand for especially these days. I know their arguments against this global corporation, big evil corp as you repeatedly point out as justification, and I don't agree it's the right move for the many reasons stated. It's still companies versus workers and you want the middle class to get theirs... that's good enough reason to act morally selfish I suppose.
What you guys don't seem to want to state clearly (ie. "market forces"), is that there are jobs which depend on these unions because indeed earning a living is a must. Professions such as Walmart greeter do not count. Target cashier either. These are part time jobs meant to supplement income (even if multiple P/T jobs) and there's no comparison with these Verizon workers (a big reason this union strike / negotiation is a steaming pile of black lard). If long isle went to school for Women's Studies or Library Sciences, do you think he should be able to argue for a living wage? He basically just admitted it. What about a street artist? This is the kind of mentality of certain workers that I have problems with. They feel entitled to things without having earned it. We can see this clearly, so I'm not sure why you think I'm the measuring stick to anything. I'm just the person making the most noise on a random forum.
Greed met with greed is the best you got. Got it.
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You mean, like the imposition of a minimum wage and mandatory health insurance for certain employers? We already legislate this to some degree. Please try to keep up.
I already mentioned minimum wage earlier in the thread. They're getting it because they cried that flipping burgers deserves a living wage and $15/hr. Something else you can guess I would disagree on, but you wouldn't. Nevermind that that's a part-time job too. Try to keep up.
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Originally Posted by TEPLimey
Also, ovi8, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how society might rid itself of the scourge that is organized labor. What's your solution to the problem?
I have ZERO solution to the problem for the simple fact that I'm not into dealing with the politics of it all. And there are many ties. The overwhelming majority of us want them gone in NY (do you agree or not?) yet nobody has been able to do it. Why would I even offer a solution? Long isle could probably tell you, since he stalks my posts, that I can't stand even talking about politics and the whole voting system is FUBAR. I think there's a reason people do it - and that's because of the us vs. them mentality. Sound familiar?
My turn for a personal question - I now assume that you have made a living with a good professional job actually earning your way up the ladder. With your opinion on workers being able to simply negotiate for better terms without having to do so, how does that play into teaching [your] kids about how to best earn a living?
Is that why I mentioned earlier my company has members who've been trying to organize for years and I scoff at them equally? What do I stand to lose if I join them since they're protected? That tells you it's all about what they stand for especially these days. I know their arguments against this global corporation, big evil corp as you repeatedly point out as justification, and I don't agree it's the right move for the many reasons stated. It's still us against them and you want the middle class to get theirs... that's good enough reason to act morally selfish I suppose.
I rejected both the "greedy Union" and the "evil corporations" monikers pages back, but I know you like to bury your head in the sand with respect to fact...
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Originally Posted by ovi8
What you guys don't want to seem to want to state clearly, is that there are professions which require these unions because indeed earning a living is required these days.
So, you are reinforcing our point? That, without collective bargaining, corporations would reduce compensation to below a living wage? Well alrighty then.
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Originally Posted by ovi8
Professions such as Walmart greeter do not count. Target cashier either. These are part time jobs and there's no comparison with these Verizon workers. If long isle went to school for Women's Studies or Library Sciences, do you think he should be able to argue for a living wage? This is the kind of mentality that I have problems with.
Employment at Target or Walmart pays what market rate demands. If they Unionized and demanded more, then market rate shifts. If the Unions demand too much (e.g., beyond where the market rate lies), then they will find new employees. I know you like to sneer at less-educated people who have to take more menial jobs, but I'd rather see them working for a living wage than being topped-up at the expense of the taxpayer, as they are now.
But I'm still waiting for you to post the copy of the edict given to you where you were appointed the sole arbiter of what is "fair" compensation or what jobs "count" enough to warrant earning a decent wage. Your sense of self-import is staggering.
And for your own edification, Target posted a $3.36 billion profit in 2015, Wallmart posted a $3.08 billion profit, and Verizon $19 billion. I have nothing against corporations making money, but nor do I have anything against workers demanding a bigger slice of the pie under circumstances such as these.
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Originally Posted by ovi8
I already mentioned minimum wage earlier in the thread. They're getting it because they cried that flipping burgers deserves a living wage and $15/hr. Nevermind that that's a part-time job too. Try to keep up.
Yes, you mentioned that the minimum wage was raised "because people argued serving burgers should fund them through life". It was another insightful piece of hyperbole grounded in your own prejudices rather than any salient fact, much like the other strawmen you raise in this thread (such as the fabricated bogeymen of "guaranteed jobs" and "no accountability" on which you have relied). Congratulations.
In any event, I have no idea why you take umbrage at the mention of minimum raise to rebut your point. After all, you tried to spin the idea of private sector Unions into a hyperbolic terror of "national unionization" where there are certain minimum compensation and benefits would be required to be paid to employees, as if implementing such a system was unfathomable. My point about minimum wage and the ACA was that such a system already exists and we have survived.
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Originally Posted by ovi8
I have ZERO solution to the problem for the simple fact that I'm not into dealing with the politics of it all. And there are many ties. The overwhelming majority of us want them gone in NY (do you agree or not?) yet nobody has been able to do it. Why would I even offer a solution? Long isle could probably tell you, since he stalks my posts, that I can't stand even talking about politics. I think there's a reason people do it - and that's because of the us vs. them mentality. Sound familiar?
So you have no solution. No thoughts. Nothing intelligent to offer. You just like to stand on your soapbox and shout into the wind. Wonderful.
And I disagree that the "overwhelming majority" of people want private sector Unions gone in New York. On what do you base such a claim?
The only "us v. them" mentality I see on this thread is your self-declared war on lower-income people and your belief that you should be the last word on who deserves what. As I have said numerous times, I believe in a negotiated balance in the employer v. employee relationship because I believe both sides have valid interests. That would be an inclusive perspective, not an adversarial one.
When I chose a profession, I made sure to learn a valuable skill that can never be automated or replicated by a 15 yr old kid or a robot living in a 3rd world country. I feel blessed.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but babysitting is not a profession.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but babysitting is not a profession.
Funny you should mention that stay at home dad!!! 75k is a high starting salary!!! I make that on my free time if I wish. I was making that much at 23 yrs old working for a low level contractor. That's why I don't give a crap if my kids teacher makes 100k. Good for the teachers and cops. You had your chance and blew it on a generic dead end field. Keep crying, it's entertaining! !
^ By that reasoning, you should realize I get enough childish behavior at home and don't need anymore here. First you say I'm a stay at home dad then I'm working in some generic dead end field. You're not sure of anything so you try to generalize personal attacks? Stick to the asian thing, you've got that one down by now.
Let's do this salary thing. If I say these people are asking for more than I get, I'm "jealous". If I say I make $200k, then I'm against the middle class or I'm "sneering at less-educated or menial-job people". Good stuff. It can't at all be that I compare union workers with the general public and not myself... that's impossible! There's gotta be a selfish reason I don't like you guys so MY compensation must explain it all! You're so not bright.
/\ do you find it odd that you are the only one in this thread that is adamantly against unions? A few jokes from the peanut gallery on both sides but, you are the ONLY person willing to lay it all out as to why unions aren't needed. This discussion has run its course. You win. From an outsider looking in though Tep handled you thoroughly. Now that guy is bright and articulate.
looks like union and Verizon may have an agreement
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