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"No wall" has nothing to do with open borders which we've NEVER had, never WILL have and no one wants. It's a red herring hyperbolic stretch that skips over the 100 new tech ways to secure a border like most other countries. So yes, a "barrier" is essential as are checkpoints and a strong presence. A physical wall is the worst of the ideas since it's expensive, ugly, not wanted by the locals and is easily breached (particularly in light of drone and other tech). You see the tunnels they built before? Nicer than our subways. lol. A wall doesn't help change foreign policy that creates mass migrations and regime changes and genocides (and the "mythical" climate change will create mass migrations like we've never seen before soon enough).
So why do we have that nice poem on the statue? Does it list acceptable countries or just tired, poor, etc? If we don't allow immigration, where will we get labor? We ain't making babies like we used to ya know. The people from the "good" countries aren't in such a rush to come here anymore. They have their own health care, social safety nets, decent economies and no perpetual war. One difference is in Europe we helped stop genocide. In other places we perpetuate it.
America just can't get it's head out of it's azz to fix it's problems so we are looking at immigrants as the big scapegoat. It's really kind of a joke. Trump has everyone so snowed. Meanwhile, defense and prison contractors are raking in billions of tax dollars solving the "crisis." A highly profitable one in terms of money and votes. That's all it's really about.
LOL are you kidding me? no one wants open borders?? Did you see the democrat debate? They pretty much all called for decriminalizing it and ending all detentions. Guess what? Thats pretty much open borders. And the left literally calls for open borders on a daily basis "No borders, no nations, stop the deportations!" is what they chant at pretty much every immigration protest. So spare me the "no one wants open borders" because PLENTY on the left do, including the Dem politicians who give casual lip service to "border security".
We already have drones and sensors. You know what they do? they sit there and watch 100k illegals cross a month. Wow. A drone isn't going to stop anything, and i never said a wall was the only solution either but physical barriers are certainly part of it. What really needs to change is asylum law loopholes need to be closed or a third country agreement needs to be signed (which we are reportedly close to doing with Guatemala) then we can legally turn away asylum claims from certain countries. Right now we can't and its blowing up the system even though the vast majority of claims are rejected. Thats what's driving the current crisis.
Where do we get labor? We import a MILLION LEGAL immigrants from all over including many many poor third world countries. We have by far the most generous immigration system in the world. if we need to increase that number for more labor we can, that dosent mean we should just let anyone without any info on them whatsoever waltz across the border with a 2nd grade education and 5 kids who will all become public charges to further strain a system already at the breaking point. And importing endless cheap labor for jobs that will probably eventually go away to robotics not to mention the impact on our culture as a whole is a debate unto itself.
LOL are you kidding me? no one wants open borders?? Did you see the democrat debate? They pretty much all called for decriminalizing it and ending all detentions. Guess what? Thats pretty much open borders. And the left literally calls for open borders on a daily basis "No borders, no nations, stop the deportations!" is what they chant at pretty much every immigration protest. So spare me the "no one wants open borders" because PLENTY on the left do, including the Dem politicians who give casual lip service to "border security".
We already have drones and sensors. You know what they do? they sit there and watch 100k illegals cross a month. Wow. A drone isn't going to stop anything, and i never said a wall was the only solution either but physical barriers are certainly part of it. What really needs to change is asylum law loopholes need to be closed or a third country agreement needs to be signed (which we are reportedly close to doing with Guatemala) then we can legally turn away asylum claims from certain countries. Right now we can't and its blowing up the system even though the vast majority of claims are rejected. Thats what's driving the current crisis.
Where do we get labor? We import a MILLION LEGAL immigrants from all over including many many poor third world countries. We have by far the most generous immigration system in the world. if we need to increase that number for more labor we can, that dosent mean we should just let anyone without any info on them whatsoever waltz across the border with a 2nd grade education and 5 kids who will all become public charges to further strain a system already at the breaking point. And importing endless cheap labor for jobs that will probably eventually go away to robotics not to mention the impact on our culture as a whole is a debate unto itself.
If you want to base every discussion on what the extremes of both sides want "BUILD THAT WALL" or "OPEN BORDERS!" as the only two points, I'm outtie. It's a waste of time. Discard the two extremes and then rational discussion begins. The extreme positions don't even matter in an election.
If you think our "legal" system is supplying our economy, again, nothing to discuss. That's just flat out daft. We cannot get enough workers at the top or bottom end, we don't invest in them, we aren't educating them, we can't even import them. Our country is getting dumber and less qualified from within AND from out. The days of America as the shining beacon for many developed economies are OVER. When slavs and asians and germans came before, they had no economies and war ravaged countries. Now they don't. No one is lining up to jump steam ships out of Romania anymore. It's Honduras now and it's in our hemisphere. We just don't like it. I agree with you on the asylum laws but that is part of a larger immigration policy we need to have as a unified country, not this slap dash, how many vitriolic votes and money can I squeeze out of this mess...and make some pals mega-wealthy at the same time.
Talking about the extremes. I am laughing today at how Trump played Pelosi and the 4 leftist Dem gals. He knows there is a rift between them and Pelosi so he tweets out some blatantly racist stuff which pours salt directly into the Dem rift. He is so good at dirty business and politics, it's a shame we can't harness his power for good...but he's not good. He's a legitimately sleazy person with a cloudy agenda.
Last edited by monstermagnet; 07-15-2019 at 07:19 AM..
By the way, that “nice poem” was written in the 1880’s I believe to help finance the Statue. It is representative of a sentiment, not formal government policy. It was also a time where the US had only 75 million people and not many of them west of the Mississippi.
By the way, that “nice poem” was written in the 1880’s I believe to help finance the Statue. It is representative of a sentiment, not formal government policy. It was also a time where the US had only 75 million people and not many of them west of the Mississippi.
Still, I'm waiting to see the invitation on the Pilgrim's passports?! Or the slave ships? Or 100,000 steam ships hustling every possible ethnicity out of their lousy country from 1860-1960. This mythical "legal" immigration, what a laugh. Where is this legal immigration policy?! The 10s of thousands of overstayed visas? Apparently, we only accepted nobel laureates in our history, no gang members, religious extremists, crooks, prisoners, slavers, or other reprobates more developed countries were looking to unload on the "new world." Today's immigrants aren't good enough for us anymore. Why? We were ok with those fleeing more developed countries, even when those countries were undergoing wars, famines, genocides, ethnic cleansings. The new immigrants come from places that seem scary and less developed to us. Fair enough. The point we miss in the pragmatist argument ("we only had 75 million people then") is that our FOUNDERS were displaced from their own home for the above reasons. The "great experiment" is one where the country is a home for the wayward and displaced who by pluck and application want to work to forge a better life and by divine providence were CREATED EQUAL. It was true in 1776. It's true now. That's what made us great. The difference now is mostly skin color, language and different religious beliefs we don't like or feel comfortable with. The OP called them "invaders." He is at least showing true colors. I respect that fear and find the feelings valid. I have plenty of protectionism in my bones. I just prefer honesty. And accurate historical perspective.
Like most things, I'm for fixing the problem. Not perpetuating the same duopoly employment scheme and political football that riles up the extremists.
Still, I'm waiting to see the invitation on the Pilgrim's passports?! Or the slave ships? Or 100,000 steam ships hustling every possible ethnicity out of their lousy country from 1860-1960. This mythical "legal" immigration, what a laugh. Where is this legal immigration policy?! The 10s of thousands of overstayed visas? Apparently, we only accepted nobel laureates in our history, no gang members, religious extremists, crooks, prisoners, slavers, or other reprobates more developed countries were looking to unload on the "new world." Today's immigrants aren't good enough for us anymore. Why? We were ok with those fleeing more developed countries, even when those countries were undergoing wars, famines, genocides, ethnic cleansings. The new immigrants come from places that seem scary and less developed to us. Fair enough. The point we miss in the pragmatist argument ("we only had 75 million people then") is that our FOUNDERS were displaced from their own home for the above reasons. The "great experiment" is one where the country is a home for the wayward and displaced who by pluck and application want to work to forge a better life and by divine providence were CREATED EQUAL. It was true in 1776. It's true now. That's what made us great. The difference now is mostly skin color, language and different religious beliefs we don't like or feel comfortable with. The OP called them "invaders." He is at least showing true colors. I respect that fear and find the feelings valid. I have plenty of protectionism in my bones. I just prefer honesty. And accurate historical perspective.
Like most things, I'm for fixing the problem. Not perpetuating the same duopoly employment scheme and political football that riles up the extremists.
The pilgrims and the founders were colonists not immigrants. They found land that they wanted, took it, fought for it and won. Has zero to do with immigration as there was no established nation here with borders or immigration law. Its a common and false argument.
The pilgrims and the founders were colonists not immigrants. They found land that they wanted, took it, fought for it and won. Has zero to do with immigration as there was no established nation here with borders or immigration law. Its a common and false argument.
Exactly. My many-times-great-grandfather came here from England in 1630, in the same fleet as the Mayflower, and settled in the area outside of (and eventually in) Boston. Yes he emigrated from England but he was a New-World colonist -- not an immigrant to an America that didn't exist yet and wouldn't for almost another 150 years.
[quote=peconic117;55675111]The pilgrims and the founders were colonists not immigrants. They found land that they wanted, took it, fought for it and won. Has zero to do with immigration as there was no established nation here with borders or immigration law. Its a common and false argument
Pilgrims was a bit sarcastic. Oh well. Nice theory on imperialism as “colonism.” Tell it to the Sinnecocks. Or the waves of immigrants that followed.
The pilgrims and the founders were colonists not immigrants. They found land that they wanted, took it, fought for it and won. Has zero to do with immigration as there was no established nation here with borders or immigration law. Its a common and false argument
Pilgrims was a bit sarcastic. Oh well. Nice theory on imperialism as “colonism.” Tell it to the Sinnecocks. Or the waves of immigrants that followed.
They did tell it to them, and there was nothing the scattered primitive native tribes (not countries with borders and border controls) here could do about it. Hence why we have a country today. Call it imperialism if you like, who really cares. Read a little history, virtually every nation on the planet was forged in conquest and war. The strong survive that's nature, virtually everything you enjoy today is a result of that western "imperialism".
I’m pro imperialism, conquest and war. But short of that, you have to have aggressive immigration polices to sustain an economy that is 1/4 of the whole planet's economy. I also think we have selective memories. NY history is enough of a primer on immigration, assimilation and the lack of them. Gangs, tribes, corruption, immigration for votes, nativist uprisings, anti-civil war rioting, nothing new. Trump just ginned it up on a national level. It's great politics and helps divide the Dems. We've been hating on the next wave of immigrants since the Pilgrims, I guess that's what my point was. Yet the republic stands, strong as ever, weakened only by our own devices and failure to compromise on solutions.
Last edited by monstermagnet; 07-15-2019 at 01:07 PM..
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