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Please don't question my integrity as that was personally insulting. That takes the thread to a personal level and that is what violates the ToS. It's that sort of thing which gets threads closed down.
As for the amount of labor involved, again, the SCPD is a 24 hour year round operation which extends beyond the patrol car and precinct. And while the PO body count in a precinct (as opposed to a sector) might be equal to that of a school district, the numbers don't tell the whole story.
If all the children in private schools were in public schools, our school taxes would be more as we would require more teachers, more classrooms and more support staff. It's not ridiculous or biased. In my neighborhood alone there are 5 children attending parochial school and 3 in private school. That's 8 more bodies which would need space in the school building. Many schools are bursting at the seams as it is. Bonds would be needed and all the property owners in the community would feel the pinch. By opting to send children to parochial and private schools, those parents are subsidizing the education of the children in the public school -- after all, the private school parents are paying for something from which they are getting very little in return.
At some point in time, people will come in contact with their local PD. It might be a traffic infraction, an accident, an emergency call when someone has a heart attack, response to a burglary, answering questions to a detective trying to solve a crime, reporting excessive noise at an unGodly hour, reporting suspicious activity at the home you are watching for a neighbor, etc.
You can't compare the size of a school district to the size of a county entity. The scale and scope of operations are apples and oranges. How can I compare my youngest's teacher (who gave her extra help when she needed it) with the police officer who came to my friend's house at 3AM when she discovered her husband had dropped dead in the basement? How can I compare a friend who was assassinated while guarding a drug informant's home with my oldest's Social Studies teacher who was removed from the classroom for verbally assaulting a student? I can't. The men and women who strive to teach or to protect and serve are following different callings which have the same result: to serve the public. There are good and bad in both groups.
My answer to everything is not cops are always right nor is it teachers are always wrong. Please take a moment and look at my posts -- I am generally supportive of both groups.
If it offends people that I believe that cuts should come from the educational end as opposed to the police end, I'll be labeled 'pro-cop'. If I were to state the opposite, I would be labeled a cop-basher. There's no winning with either answer.
Just look at the # of full time employees in the NCPD and SCPD then compare that to the # of full time employees in all public schools in nassau and suffolk. The education system dwarfs the police system.
Also, I love it how in your comparisons your first example is of a teacher and a cop both doing something good, then your second is of a teacher doing something wrong and the cop doing something good. A bias is extremely evident in your posts.
Also your point on private schools is ridiculous. There aren't many children who go to private schools. I never went to public schools and I tell you my classes were tiny. The private schools these days are diminishing, and a catholic school cover 6 towns has an enrollment per grade of 25 students if they are lucky. The marginal cost for these students is nothing, so that's an argument you will never win.
Sachem, according to you, has 1,200 teachers serving 15,500 students (that figure from longislandschools.com)
SCPD has 2,500 officers (your number) serving 1,469,715 citizens plus anyone else who is in their jurisdiction on a given day.
Sachem's 2008/2009 budget is $279,401,007.00 according to longislandschools.com
SCPD district budget is:
$87,059,653.00 (from Sales tax revenue -- see page 97) http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/legis/bro/Reports/2007/Review%20of%20the%202008%20SC%20operating%20budget %20.pdf (broken link)
plus $439,543,186.00 = $526,602,839.00 (From property tax, county portion same .pdf)
I see (roughly) twice as many officers in SCPD as opposed to teachers in Sachem.
I see the budget for the SCPD is roughly twice that of Sachem
I see a teacher to student ratio of 1:13
I see an officer to civilian ration of 1:588
The police budget allows not only for operating and maintaining precincts but for such items as vehicles, gas, maintenance for the cars, etc., things the teachers do not use in the classroom. Apples for the teachers, Oranges for the SCPD
Let me ask you this:
When you had problems with the 'bikers' in RP, who did you call? The superintendent of schools or your local precinct?
ohbeehave you are missing the point - the entity known as the public school system is significantly larger than the entity known as the SCPD. That's all... why are you asking if he called the superintendent of schools to deal with a police matter? What's your agenda?
Just look at the # of full time employees in the NCPD and SCPD then compare that to the # of full time employees in all public schools in nassau and suffolk. The education system dwarfs the police system.
Also, I love it how in your comparisons your first example is of a teacher and a cop both doing something good, then your second is of a teacher doing something wrong and the cop doing something good. A bias is extremely evident in your posts.
Also your point on private schools is ridiculous. There aren't many children who go to private schools. I never went to public schools and I tell you my classes were tiny. The private schools these days are diminishing, and a catholic school cover 6 towns has an enrollment per grade of 25 students if they are lucky. The marginal cost for these students is nothing, so that's an argument you will never win.
If you would like me to look at the numbers, why don't you supply them as I have done for you? This way we all know exactly what it is you are writing about.
Private schools might be diminishing amongst those who can no longer afford both school taxes and private school tuition. I live in an area with a well-regarded school district and many of the wealthier families opt to send their children to private schools. I see much more of it here than in the blue collar area I grew up in.
The point on private schools is not ridiculous. There are a lot more children attending private schools than you would like to think. Simply because your school was small doesn't mean all private schools are small.
Education Office - School List with Web Sites (broken link)
That is a list of Catholic schools on LI; of them, 25 are in Suffolk. It is a safe bet that the larger schools (i.e. St Anthonys SHS) have several hundred each. If we multiply the 25 Catholic schools in Suffolk by 200 (does that sound fair and reasonable to you for a school ranging from K-8, because it sounds low to me) you have 5,000 students who are not using the public schools. There are public school districts on LI which have far fewer students. If all private education was to be eliminated, the Catholic schools alone would set loose a school district's worth of students.
FWIW: Here are student populations of some of the larger, Suffolk County Catholic schools. St Patricks School in Huntington has 639 students K-8; St Patricks in Bayshore - 425; Our Lady Queen of the Apostles - 310; Our Lady of Perpetual Help - 308; Our Lady of the Hamptons - 295; Our Lady of Lourdes - 256; Academy of St Joseph - 382; St Mary's School - 525; Holy Angels Regional School - 390. That's 3,530 students in 9 Catholic schools. (We haven't accounted for 15 schools)
Mind you we haven't even touched on private schools like Knox - 125; Laurel Hill - 399; or non Catholic religious schools like The Ross School - 345; Solomon Schecter - 86; Emmanuel Lutheran - 116; Smithtown Christian School - 526; that's another 1,527 non Catholic private school students.
It is very possible that the number of children enrolled in private schools in Suffolk County might equal the student population of one of the larger public school districts.
Would you suggest that if all of these children were sent back to their 'home' public schools, that it wouldn't cause any sort of disruption?
Bias? Hardly. I have no relatives in either the SCPD or the schools. I won't be the recipient of health benefits, retirement income or any perks from either job.
I believe that of the two professions, the SCPD has the more difficult as well as potentially dangerous job, and as such, the deserve what they make. The SCPD also costs less for me both in property tax and in sales tax on the items I purchase. The SCPD can generate revenue for the county, while the schools educate our children who are forced to leave because the ALL of the taxes (as well as home prices) are not affordable to anyone just starting out.
ohbeehave you are missing the point - the entity known as the public school system is significantly larger than the entity known as the SCPD. That's all... why are you asking if he called the superintendent of schools to deal with a police matter? What's your agenda?
Yes, the school system is significantly larger and has many services which can be consolidated in an effort to save money. That's why I picked education for the poll.
I've no agenda. The other fellow posted that they needed the SCPD to help them with a problem. At that point in time, I would wager he felt the SCPD was worth it. Now that he doesn't need them, he diminishes their value.
My friend and I (years ago -- we were 20) were followed one night by two guys in a van. We were scared, pulled into a well lit convenience store and called the PD from a payphone and stayed put until they arrived. The men in the van left as soon as they saw the cruiser. I will never forget the relief we felt. Things could have turned out differently if the SCPD didn't respond. To this day I am grateful.
I also appreciate the teachers who have laid the foundation for my education. My life would have been very different if a few of them weren't in my life. And for that I am grateful.
If someone made pick between being a teacher in Longwood or a police officer cruising Gordon Heights on a midnight tour -- I would opt to be a teacher. Why? Because I am a big chicken and I would much rather deal with some bright children, creative children, eager children (and the occasional fresh child) as opposed to the unknown -- trying to help hard working people who are honest and have to live around pedophiles, drug dealers, drug addicts, any of whom could be carrying a gun and a grudge.
Yes, the school system is significantly larger and has many services which can be consolidated in an effort to save money. That's why I picked education for the poll.
I've no agenda. The other fellow posted that they needed the SCPD to help them with a problem. At that point in time, I would wager he felt the SCPD was worth it. Now that he doesn't need them, he diminishes their value.
My friend and I (years ago -- we were 20) were followed one night by two guys in a van. We were scared, pulled into a well lit convenience store and called the PD from a payphone and stayed put until they arrived. The men in the van left as soon as they saw the cruiser. I will never forget the relief we felt. Things could have turned out differently if the SCPD didn't respond. To this day I am grateful.
I also appreciate the teachers who have laid the foundation for my education. My life would have been very different if a few of them weren't in my life. And for that I am grateful.
If someone made pick between being a teacher in Longwood or a police officer cruising Gordon Heights on a midnight tour -- I would opt to be a teacher. Why? Because I am a big chicken and I would much rather deal with some bright children, creative children, eager children (and the occasional fresh child) as opposed to the unknown -- trying to help hard working people who are honest and have to live around pedophiles, drug dealers, drug addicts, any of whom could be carrying a gun and a grudge.
So now I have 2 questions for you:
1) Do you think the SCPD needs to be paid as well as they are (one of the highest in the nation) in order to answer your phone call about the van following you?
and
2) Since you are pointing out the risk of the police jobs as reason why they should be overpaid - Shouldn't NYPD make substantially more? Shouldn't our armed forces make substantially more? Shouldn't corrections officers make substantially more? They don't because the skills required to do those jobs aren't scarce - many people can do them. So why are the SCPD and NCPD the exceptions? (the question is rhetorical, they are exceptions because of a corrupt county executive named tom gulotta who wanted votes and an archaic and useless law called the taylor law that puts nassau and suffolk between a rock and a hard place).
If you would like me to look at the numbers, why don't you supply them as I have done for you? This way we all know exactly what it is you are writing about.
Private schools might be diminishing amongst those who can no longer afford both school taxes and private school tuition. I live in an area with a well-regarded school district and many of the wealthier families opt to send their children to private schools. I see much more of it here than in the blue collar area I grew up in.
The point on private schools is not ridiculous. There are a lot more children attending private schools than you would like to think. Simply because your school was small doesn't mean all private schools are small.
Education Office - School List with Web Sites (broken link)
That is a list of Catholic schools on LI; of them, 25 are in Suffolk. It is a safe bet that the larger schools (i.e. St Anthonys SHS) have several hundred each. If we multiply the 25 Catholic schools in Suffolk by 200 (does that sound fair and reasonable to you for a school ranging from K-8, because it sounds low to me) you have 5,000 students who are not using the public schools. There are public school districts on LI which have far fewer students. If all private education was to be eliminated, the Catholic schools alone would set loose a school district's worth of students.
FWIW: Here are student populations of some of the larger, Suffolk County Catholic schools. St Patricks School in Huntington has 639 students K-8; St Patricks in Bayshore - 425; Our Lady Queen of the Apostles - 310; Our Lady of Perpetual Help - 308; Our Lady of the Hamptons - 295; Our Lady of Lourdes - 256; Academy of St Joseph - 382; St Mary's School - 525; Holy Angels Regional School - 390. That's 3,530 students in 9 Catholic schools. (We haven't accounted for 15 schools)
Mind you we haven't even touched on private schools like Knox - 125; Laurel Hill - 399; or non Catholic religious schools like The Ross School - 345; Solomon Schecter - 86; Emmanuel Lutheran - 116; Smithtown Christian School - 526; that's another 1,527 non Catholic private school students.
It is very possible that the number of children enrolled in private schools in Suffolk County might equal the student population of one of the larger public school districts.
Would you suggest that if all of these children were sent back to their 'home' public schools, that it wouldn't cause any sort of disruption?
Bias? Hardly. I have no relatives in either the SCPD or the schools. I won't be the recipient of health benefits, retirement income or any perks from either job.
I believe that of the two professions, the SCPD has the more difficult as well as potentially dangerous job, and as such, the deserve what they make. The SCPD also costs less for me both in property tax and in sales tax on the items I purchase. The SCPD can generate revenue for the county, while the schools educate our children who are forced to leave because the ALL of the taxes (as well as home prices) are not affordable to anyone just starting out.
If you assume 7,000 children attend private school in Suffolk county, thats approximately 2% of children. If each school's enrollment increased 2%, there's be a marginal increase in costs. Most schools in suffolk aren't crowded like in NYC and 2% probably woulnd't pop the belt. Sorry, but your numbers do not prove your point. The fact is the SCPD is a tiny entity compared to the education system and thus cannot be compared at all. Yes there is waste in the school system but look at what we pay cops - plenty of waste there too
So now I have 2 questions for you:
1) Do you think the SCPD needs to be paid as well as they are (one of the highest in the nation) in order to answer your phone call about the van following you?
and
2) Since you are pointing out the risk of the police jobs as reason why they should be overpaid - Shouldn't NYPD make substantially more? Shouldn't our armed forces make substantially more? Shouldn't corrections officers make substantially more? They don't because the skills required to do those jobs aren't scarce - many people can do them. So why are the SCPD and NCPD the exceptions? (the question is rhetorical, they are exceptions because of a corrupt county executive named tom gulotta who wanted votes and an archaic and useless law called the taylor law that puts nassau and suffolk between a rock and a hard place).
Neither one of us is going to change the other's opinion, but I will answer your questions.
1) As a person who could have been assaulted, yes. I was not and and am not the only female who has been placed in that position. When my SIL was murdered, the police responded and sought out her killer. When my HS classmate and her coworker were abducted from their job and were gang raped by a group of men, who dumped them naked on a street corner, the police were there to help them. When my neighbor's son wandered off, the police looked for him. When my husband was in an MVA, the police responded. When I received a speeding ticket...well I wasn't thrilled, but I broke the law and I paid.
So yes, based on my experience, as well as the COL on LI, the SCPD should be well paid. Bear in mind that I also agreed with several of the options you suggested as to where cut backs could be made without completely cutting salaries. I am not suggesting they make as much as a heart surgeon, or a wall street titan.
2) I feel the NYPD, armed forces, CO, etc, should receive a better living wage as well. Yes, certain departments got a leg up on the salary scale with the help of less than honest pols. We can't take that back. The Taylor law was used to their benefit and the Taylor law can work well for the teachers union members.
In general -- not specific to NCPD or SCPD:
Not everyone can be a PO and not everyone wants to be a PO. Psychologically, it can take it's toll. Police have a high rate of suicide. Dealing with murders, rapes, suicides, molested children, murdered children is not something any of us non POs do. Knocking on the door to a house at 2AM to tell them their loved one has been killed in an accident isn't something anyone relishes. A good PO has to have the ability to think quickly when assessing a situation, the character of the person he is engaging, the ability to be a psychologist, a sounding board, a mediator and to remain emotionally uninvolved in the process. Their suicide rate is greater than that of non POs: Police Suicide - Alarming Problem
"[SIZE=3]Capt. Gus Carre, the commanding officer at EAP, did say stress among police officers is not unusual. "It's a difficult job made more difficult by the individuals that officers must deal with on a daily basis."[/SIZE] [SIZE=3] Many police officers see a steady diet of the grim underside of life that most people rarely see.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE][SIZE=3] They are usually first at the scene when babies are killed, when wives are battered, when addicts die of an overdose or when accidents kill or maim citizens. It all takes its toll on even the most hard-nosed officers."[/SIZE]
If you assume 7,000 children attend private school in Suffolk county, thats approximately 2% of children. If each school's enrollment increased 2%, there's be a marginal increase in costs. Most schools in suffolk aren't crowded like in NYC and 2% probably woulnd't pop the belt. Sorry, but your numbers do not prove your point. The fact is the SCPD is a tiny entity compared to the education system and thus cannot be compared at all. Yes there is waste in the school system but look at what we pay cops - plenty of waste there too
I don't assume 7,000 children attend private schools -- we can continue to collect numbers and prove the number is equal to or greater. But for arguments sake, we can use 7,000. 71 school districts on LI absorbing 7,000 children averages to 100 students per district. If a district spends $14000 per student, 100 more students is $1,400,000.00. That's not chicken feed.
A 2% increase in a school has a ripple effect. Another teacher. Perhaps more hours for an overworked social worker. More equipment. In the older schools -- more space. More paperwork, more buses. More free lunches, more students requiring special services.......
I don't assume 7,000 children attend private schools -- we can continue to collect numbers and prove the number is equal to or greater. But for arguments sake, we can use 7,000. 71 school districts on LI absorbing 7,000 children averages to 100 students per district. If a district spends $14000 per student, 100 more students is $1,400,000.00. That's not chicken feed.
A 2% increase in a school has a ripple effect. Another teacher. Perhaps more hours for an overworked social worker. More equipment. In the older schools -- more space. More paperwork, more buses. More free lunches, more students requiring special services.......
There is no greater weapon than statistics in the hands of those who cannot interpret them. 7,000 is an appropriate assumption (probably ont he high end, but I'll settle at 7,000). You cannot multiply the $7,000 by the average dollars spent per child because there's this ecomonic concept called marginal cost. It's essentially the cost required for 1 more unit of output. Normally, the marginal cost is equal to the variable cost - costs that direct increase when you add a student (ie: more lunches served). The biggest ticket items (administration/ building/ etc) are sunk costs. The only real cost adding 2% more children to the schools is the hiring of another teacher. Even that isn't a certainty - if the schools can hold a 2% increase (spread amongst all the grade levels), then no additional costs are incurred. Are you following the math? Therefore your assumptions are faulty and private schooling has little effect on education savings.
However, while we are heading down this road, how about all the villages that have their own police force and the SCPD doesn't patrol? How about the state roads that are patrolled by NYS and not the SCPD?
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