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Old 01-21-2009, 02:09 PM
 
13,510 posts, read 17,032,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
Won't work. Many folks been doing that for many years but nothing changes. We left 4.5 years ago because the longer you stay on LI, the lower your standard of living becomes.
I don't think as many as you think, as people who won't give you what you want keep getting elected.

 
Old 01-21-2009, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 33,300,458 times
Reputation: 7340
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
Let's look at what you said below.

So, in the hot-headed world of I_Love_LI_But, every budget that comes up, every year, we should put teachers salaries and benefits up on the chopping block for every knee jerker to cut? That's a recipe for something SPECTACULAR to happen with our schools, Einstein. "Well, I only want to pay $500 in property taxes per year, so teachers should make 20K!!!"

In the same way the police salaries are determined through a contract, so are teachers. There is a reason WHY they are determined that way, and not by people who desire to cut taxes no matter what the consequences. You get to vote on what they get when you elect a school board. You elect a representative to make an informed decision for you.
Where did I claim support for ANYTHING so simplistic as the above? You should know me better than that, okay? Perhaps the contracts for police and school district employees should be voted on by referendum, but no, I don't think any taxpaying voter should and will have line item veto power and the power to determine what salaries should be. However, I don't think it's fair that the employees get everything they want effortlessly and the kids get the leftovers in terms of budget and the sacrifices always have to be made by the kids. There has to be a fair middle ground somewhere.

As for our representatives who are making the informed decisions: well, you are right that that needs to be changed, but can we find anyone honest? Look at the other long-standing school district "traditions" reported on: lawyers who work for private sector law firms being miscategorized as school district employees so that they can get free (non-contributory) benefits for life for themselves plus family and a pension courtesy of the taxpayers, people who "retire" one day and then "come back to work" the next day in the same position, receiving both a full pension AND a larger salary, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
Also, unless you know the fact that my wifes district is THE ONLY district that has raised employee medical contribution, you should refrain from going around the internet saying it is, comprende'? Otherwise, you are spreading misinformation.
I will see what I can find out. However, it is and always has been a traditional teacher's bennie, so I doubt that even if most school districts are now making teachers chip in towards the costs, they are paying anywhere near what private sector employees face. Sorry to break it to you but since you get your health insurance benefits through a teacher spouse, I guess you don't know what it's like out there in the private sector when it comes to employee benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
Something tells me that the truth isn't up there as high on your list of priorities as your agenda.
The truth is, I find your viewpoint on who should be "more privileged," cops vs. teachers, to be extremely and shockingly hypocritical and I wonder how you would think if you weren't married to a teacher and enjoying her salary and health insurance benefits, as it is glaringly apparent that you are quite desperately fighting to stay on the gravy train by trying to garner public acceptability of what some of us may consider "overpaid" teachers while simultaneously heap total blame on and demonize what some of us may consider "overpaid" police.

PS: For the record, I don't think slashing current salaries of teachers OR police officers is going to be the definitive answer to our tax problems here on Long Island. It is unfair to "take things away" that they already have.

Last edited by I_Love_LI_but; 01-21-2009 at 02:29 PM..
 
Old 01-21-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Northwestern Michigan
939 posts, read 2,680,990 times
Reputation: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
I don't think as many as you think, as people who won't give you what you want keep getting elected.
Been like that since the 70's. De rigeur for Long Island. The Republican machine since Tom Gulotta made sure themselves and their cronies were well taken care of at the expense of those who were not in the know or connected.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 33,300,458 times
Reputation: 7340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
Been like that since the 70's. De rigeur for Long Island. The Republican machine since Tom Gulotta made sure themselves and their cronies were well taken care of at the expense of those who were not in the know or connected.
And have the Democrats done any better? They are just two sides of the same coin. Merge them and call them Republicrats.
 
Old 01-21-2009, 02:31 PM
 
13,510 posts, read 17,032,823 times
Reputation: 9691
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
Where did I claim support for ANYTHING so simplistic as the above? You should know me better than that, okay? Perhaps the contracts for police and school district employees should be voted on by referendum, but no, I don't think any taxpaying voter should and will have line item veto power and the power to determine what salaries should be. However, I don't think it's fair that the employees get everything they want effortlessly and the kids get the leftovers in terms of budget and the sacrifices always have to be made by the kids. There has to be a fair middle ground somewhere.

As for our representatives who are making the informed decisions: well, you are right that that needs to be changed, but can we find anyone honest? Look at the other long-standing school district "traditions" reported on: lawyers who work for private sector law firms being miscategorized as school district employees so that they can get free (non-contributory) benefits for life for themselves plus family and a pension courtesy of the taxpayers, people who "retire" one day and then "come back to work" the next day in the same position, receiving both a full pension AND a larger salary, etc.



I will see what I can find out. However, it is and always has been a traditional teacher's bennie, so I doubt that even if most school districts are now making teachers chip in towards the costs, they are paying anywhere near what private sector employees face. Sorry to break it to you.



The truth is, I find your viewpoint on who should be "more privileged," cops vs. teachers, to be extremely and shockingly hypocritical and I wonder how you would think if you weren't married to a teacher and enjoying her salary and health insurance benefits, as it is glaringly apparent that you are quite desperately fighting to stay on the gravy train by trying to garner public acceptability of what some of us may consider "overpaid" teachers and simultaneously demonize what some of us may consider "overpaid" police.

PS: For the record, I don't think attacking current salaries of teachers OR police officers is going to be the definitive answer to our tax problems here on Long Island. It is unfair to "take things away" that they already have.

I don't think it is at all, and every time I get a response like this from someone, the simple facts show otherwise.

Teachers need 6 years of schooling, cops need none. Look at what a career with 6 years of schooling gets you in many fields: accounting, nursing, Finance, etc..you would find something very comparable. People with Masters in Account and CPA's make well over 100K before teachers ever do. Nurses, with overtime, break 100K quite easily.

Teachers on LI make significantly lower than cops for all but the last few years of their career....starting pay averages around 14K less than cops, my wife has been working for almost 9 years and still doesn't make as much as SCPD makes after 5, and that's with no overtime and working basically the same # days.

The comparison is absolutely, patently, undeniably, absurd, yet it is the first move that the cops (and their defenders) make when we question their compensation.

The only reason people go after teachers first is because their tax bill reflects the school budget more than police, which it should, because the school system employs 10 times as many people as the police department for painfully obvious logistical reasons than any idiot should be able to comprehend.

There IS a difference. You think that it is semantical, I don't see it that way.
 
Old 01-22-2009, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 33,300,458 times
Reputation: 7340
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
I don't think it is at all, and every time I get a response like this from someone, the simple facts show otherwise.

Teachers need 6 years of schooling, cops need none. Look at what a career with 6 years of schooling gets you in many fields: accounting, nursing, Finance, etc..you would find something very comparable. People with Masters in Account and CPA's make well over 100K before teachers ever do. Nurses, with overtime, break 100K quite easily.
First of all, where do you get the belief that MASTERS DEGREE = GUARANTEED SIX-FIGURE INCOME? It sure doesn't for many people out there in the PRIVATE sector or NON-PROFIT sector, let alone the PUBLIC sector. Are public school teachers special? If so, what makes them special above librarians or social workers, who make less than $100k? Take a look at this non-profit sector job webpage idealist.org - Welcome to Idealist.org - Imagine. Connect. Act.. Take a look at the educations demanded and the salaries they are willing to give in return. As a matter of fact, take a look at any college or university webpage where they have employment listings and see the educations demanded versus what they are willing to pay people. So, once again, where do you get the belief that MASTERS DEGREE = GUARANTEED SIX-FIGURE INCOME? In the real world, most masters degree holders don't get six figures, even in the high cost NYC metropolitan area.

People with masters degrees like accounting and CPAs who work in the PUBLIC SECTOR are not guaranteed $100k either. See USAJOBS - The Federal Government's Official Jobs Site for example of what these masters degree holders are getting when working for the Federal government. And don't tell me "it's a trade-off for job security and good benefits" either because isn't that what the police and public school teachers were supposed to do? Take less money in return for those things.

Do you actually know nurses who "break $100k quite easily?" Do you actually know any nurses? If so, where do they work? In (notoriously cheap) doctor's offices? As 9 to 5'ers in companies as "company nurses?" As consultants for personal injury law firms? Because if you are talking about hospital nursing, that just doesn't happen. Why? Because when there is an unplanned absence of a nurse (calling in sick, etc.) the hospital DOES NOT call in a temp, nor do they ask anyone to work overtime. They make the remaining nurses on the shift DEAL WITH IT. It is all about saving the money. And when it comes to planned absences, they are notoriously stingy about approving time off. Note that nurses always have to work holidays! If you are a nurse and get Xmas off, you are very lucky and you are the only one on your shift. As a result, you will probably NOT get Xmas off for the next couple of years because it is someone else's turn. So where is this rampant overtime you are claiming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
Teachers on LI make significantly lower than cops for all but the last few years of their career....starting pay averages around 14K less than cops, my wife has been working for almost 9 years and still doesn't make as much as SCPD makes after 5, and that's with no overtime and working basically the same # days.
Why should they make as much as SCPD when there are so many other masters degree holders who do not? As a matter of fact, there are lots of totally "UNEDUCATED" people who make over $100K. Go see my auto body guy (high school grad). Or my contractor (high school dropout, GED!). As for overtime, it is a fact of life that cops have to do it. They have to go to court sometimes and the police force cannot just send anyone else there who isn't on overtime. They have to stay past the end of a shift to clear up paperwork.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
The comparison is absolutely, patently, undeniably, absurd, yet it is the first move that the cops (and their defenders) make when we question their compensation.
Actually this made me laugh, because I am not a cop defender. If you asked me who I prefer, Long Island cops or Long Island teachers, I would say TEACHERS!

As for the question of compensation, okay, if we are going to consider LI teachers and cops "overprivileged" I would say that the cops win hands down for the "most overprivileged." The non-contributory health insurance benefits and the 20 year 1/2 pay for life pension are extreme perks, plus the overtime necessary for cops is much more than for teachers, although some teachers do get it because they are involved in extracurricular activities with the kids and of course they deserve to be compensated extra. The police depts. need to drag these perks back down to reality. For every cop that retires at 20 years instead of 30 years, that means the PD has to pay them 1/2 salary, PLUS hire another guy at full salary for those 10 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
The only reason people go after teachers first is because their tax bill reflects the school budget more than police, which it should, because the school system employs 10 times as many people as the police department for painfully obvious logistical reasons than any idiot should be able to comprehend.

There IS a difference. You think that it is semantical, I don't see it that way.
I don't "go after" teachers. When it comes to the administrative aspects of school districts, I think the bloated bureaucracies and the do nothing high paid multiple administrators need to get cut, not teachers' salaries. Teachers are the ones that directly influence the kids and having good teachers is imperative. I am a product of LI schools from kindergarten through high school graduation and I can say I got a good education and most importantly, I found all my teachers worthy of their jobs, intelligent and non-slackers! I never looked at a teacher and thought, "this person is incompetent." No way.

The thing with the hotly disputed "overpaid" police officers and teachers on Long Island is this: it is all interconnected. Our quality of life, our safety, our children's chances for upward mobility, and our property values are affected by good police and good teachers. Good people can get the highest salaries. Nassau and Suffolk are routinely on yearly listings of the safest places to live in America. As per Newsday, our schools produced 20% of the latest Intel semifinalists while the whole rest of the country together produced 80%! These things matter and they cost $$$.
 
Old 01-22-2009, 06:45 PM
 
99 posts, read 272,664 times
Reputation: 34
The "masters" a teacher is required to get is a complete joke. And also just because you have a degree does not mean you should get paid more necessarily, school does not guarantee high pay. I have a degree and work a professional job but still.

If you have ever seen the "masters" program that Dowling etc put out it is absurd. I knew several people who were not very smart, and got straight A's while making grammatical errors like using "there" wrong.

In addition, it seems that in the sciences, it is hard to find teachers, however the applications are overflowing for primary school and liberal arts teachers. Where else are you going to make a lot of money with a liberal arts degree? In addition don't compare this to MBA (equally useless, just topping on the cake, and a MBA with no experience will never get hired.) or an advanced professional degree. Just as you complain about the police, look at the primary school teachers as the police of the college educated folks.
 
Old 01-22-2009, 06:50 PM
 
99 posts, read 272,664 times
Reputation: 34
I find it interesting that dman criticizes the police for using the comparison with teachers argument, yet uses the same argument when defending teachers. Teachers and Police pointing fingers at each other is like George Bush and Dick Cheney arguing over who is worse! Nobody cares about the cynic defense.
 
Old 01-23-2009, 06:56 AM
 
13,510 posts, read 17,032,823 times
Reputation: 9691
To sumup:

1)I never said a degree guarantees 6 figure income, so..that's not a point I have to defend. Certain degress in certain fields pretty much do.

Most teachers, if they ever reach 6 figures, don't get there until they've been teaching for 20 years.

Getting on SCPD guarantees 6 figure income without 6 years of school, no debate. Many of them, their 5 or 6 years of school is NYPD, where they are earning while working, and building up years of service.

2) Of course there are professional degrees that don't make 6 figures..if you want to be an environmental consultant, social worker, etc, you aren't going to make 6 figures. You know that going in.

When I said nurses, I'm talking about RN's, not home health aides.

As for what you guys consider to be a "joke" in terms of education..well, that's all your conjecture.

And of course you can make 6 figures with no education if you are into the right things, but you also will be subject to the ebbs and flows of the market in most cases, and more power to you if you start your own business and earn 6 figures doing it. You aren't guaranteed an income that the taxpayer will be liable for ...until you die!!

Call it whatever you want:
6 years of schooling vs. none
Start in the low 40's, after ten years around 75-80, max out around 100, vs start at 57K, and after 5 years, make over 100K for the next 15 before retiring.

You guys are talking about 500K or so per person over 10 years as if it's trivial. Hmmm, I wonder why........ The cost to the taxpayer, per body, of SCPD and NCPD is significantly more than a teacher ...by quite a bit. People need to know that.
 
Old 01-23-2009, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 33,300,458 times
Reputation: 7340
Quote:
Originally Posted by dman72 View Post
When I said nurses, I'm talking about RN's, not home health aides.
Don't be such a wiseguy. I was talking about RNs too -- RNs that work here and now in the NYC metropolitan area. Do you know any? Perhaps the ones "easily breaking $100k" you are talking about do not work for employers in the United States? For hospital nurses in the US, OT cannot be counted on as a source of income, because for all intents and purposes, hospitals have set things up so they won't give it. As a matter of fact, for salaried RNs, when Bush pushed the change in overtime rules, they reclassified RNs so that they are akin to managerial employees ("exempt") and can be made to work overtime for no extra pay. The only thing that saves RNs from this is that there is a shortage of them and hospitals know they cannot get away with this, so they classify their pay as f/t hourly and just avoid giving them any overtime hours.
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