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No one will get anywhere with this conversation unless you look at the job, the total pension/health benefits, and it's relationship to the state and local taxes. It's not really the "salary" that's killing the state and local governments - it's the promised and unsustainable pension/helath benefits. Just If anyone examines this relationship carefully, you will see it is simply UNSUSTAINABLE, since most of those pension funds were projected to come from the stock market returns and growth that may not come back for the next 5-20 years. State and local governments WILL have to either make drastic cuts or raise taxes (probably both will happen). See here for an analysis of California's situation. I am buying my first home right now and do not want to face this on LI, but I fear we will have "some" version of it.
I'm not that old, but I always remember when I was kid being told teacher, police, firemen did not make big salaries but they only put in 20 years, and then got great a pension & benefits. I grew up here and agree LI's government workers should be paid more, but the whole thing has gotten WAY out of hand. Most of us are working middle class - big salaries plus the generous benefits and pensions are simply unsustainable at current levels unless you are ready for 15-20k in taxes. Not likely with the job losses and salary cuts coming in the private sector.
grew up here and agree LI's government workers should be paid more, but the whole thing has gotten WAY out of hand[/b]. Most of us are working middle class - big salaries plus the generous benefits and pensions are simply unsustainable at current levels unless you are ready for 15-20k in taxes. Not likely with the job losses and salary cuts coming in the private sector.
The real problem, not originally being from New York or LI, is the amazing amout of PAID government staff we have...LI has an entire extra layer of government that most regions in the country simply do not have, at the Township level. I am stating this separate from the salary scale issue, but the sheer number of paid government staff, and paid elected officials, when elected office is supposed to be a public service, is awfully high.
Benefits is another issue, but is for both the private and public sectors.
Are you saying that those teachers that could've "easily" gone into law should be compared to those that are actually lawyers or are you saying that teachers are "woefully" underpaid relative to other professional groups that I mentioned, such as engineers and accountants?
The real problem, not originally being from New York or LI, is the amazing amout of PAID government staff we have...LI has an entire extra layer of government that most regions in the country simply do not have, at the Township level. I am stating this separate from the salary scale issue, but the sheer number of paid government staff, and paid elected officials, when elected office is supposed to be a public service, is awfully high.
Benefits is another issue, but is for both the private and public sectors.
Throughout the South, and even in the Midwest these day, conservatives keep crowing about accountability and competition. They argue that we need vouchers and performance pay in order to give teachers incentives to excel.
Now, here on Long Island, we have a situation in which teachers are excellent, well payed, and who perform far above the national average on things like testing and college placement, and the same conservatives whistle an entirely different tune. "Cut their pay," they say.
Doesn't this argument really reveal the core of the conservative argument? They aren't about improving teaching, because where teaching is very good, they still want to find ways to cut pay!
I'm sure we can all provide examples of incompetent lawyers and other professionals...and compare them to highly intelligent educators we've come across, but how do you think the average intelligence/aptitude of a quality high school teacher compares to that of an accountant at one of the big 4, or a PE who's working on a large bridge rehabiliation project, or a tax attorney working for a typical corporate law firm?
Throughout the South, and even in the Midwest these day, conservatives keep crowing about accountability and competition. They argue that we need vouchers and performance pay in order to give teachers incentives to excel.
Now, here on Long Island, we have a situation in which teachers are excellent, well payed, and who perform far above the national average on things like testing and college placement, and the same conservatives whistle an entirely different tune. "Cut their pay," they say.
Doesn't this argument really reveal the core of the conservative argument? They aren't about improving teaching, because where teaching is very good, they still want to find ways to cut pay!
Forget about pay cuts. People tend to focus on that because they don't have the time to really dig in the issues. Like when people got mad at the 168 million that went to AIG bonuses, but said nothing about the 30 Billion that Goldman Sachs and other banksters received of taxpayer funds "through AIG".
There are going to be BIG deficits at the local, state and federal level - they are here NOW and more coming. There is not enough $$ to pay the obligations at even at current levels let alone standard increases. There will be kicking and screaming, but it will be in the best interest of EVERYONE to bring these government obligations in line with current incomes in a sutainable way. The only alternative is we become California!
Here's story yesterday where William Floyd schools made 1M in concessions. According to the article, people in the district make 1/2 the state average income, yet teachers are slated to make $86K? The end of the article states they hope it get better in a year so they can negotiate a better packge! They are still deluded and do not realize that things are never going back to 2001-2007 levels. It was all built on a credit bubble that cannot be re-inflated (if it is re-inflated it won't last too long). So they are just shuffling to make emergency concessions, but they have not realized that much more fundamental, long term changes will have to be made. It's just a matter of how dangerously close to the edge do we go before we realize it.
Wm. Floyd teachers union to give up $1M to save jobs -- Newsday.com (http://www.newsday.com/news/local/education/ny-liteac2212677876apr21,0,2322529.story - broken link)
^^ School districts are taking advantage of the current economic conditions in order to squeeze concessions out of the unions. For what it's worth, I believe that, with all the hype, teachers unions on Long Island are among the weakest unions around. The problem is that the union reps are so intertwined with the PTA and the board, that they consider themselves management, rather than representatives of the workers. Does anyone at Floydd really believe that when the next contract comes up that the board will appreciate their giveback this year? I tend to doubt it. Teachers (and anyone else who is in a union) need union reps who will represent their interests, rather then the interests of the company (or board, as the case may be).
The engineers and accountants are probably in the ballpark with teachers for most stages of their careers (with engineers on the high end and accountants on the low end of the grouping) and that is without an adjustment based on total hours worked. I don't have a good sense about LI-based attorney pay, though I have a very good idea of NYC based attorney pay since my wife is a recruiting manager at a fairly large NYC law firm. For better or worse, your average attorney will generally outearn your average engineer, accountant or teacher and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I'm open minded about this, but just as you write off those that are seemingly on a witch hunt against teacher's salaries, I also don't think you can then turn around and make a legitimate claim that teachers are woefully underpaid on LI as compared to some of their peers in other professions. I don't think the numbers will support that claim.
Engineers absolutely make more than teachers. They top out fairly early in their careers (unless you go into management, many technical fields do this) but you can't compare an engineer and a teacher with, say, 5 years experience.
A CPA, especially with a master's degree, is one of the better paid occupations out there, and you can really make a lot of money if you're good. It's also the hardest professional exam to pass.
Nursing would be a better comparison. They're one of the best paid jobs you can get with a bachelors or less (many ADN nurses out there) but that's close to teacher salaries and with less education required. I don't begrudge them that pay, but it's hard to say that a nurse with a bachelor's degree is worth $75K while a teacher is not.
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Professionals in general
