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Have you ever been to any elite college during finals week? Adderall and ritalin have replaced coffee as the study aid of choice. My roommate got nosebleeds from snorting adderall so much during finals week. BTW, this type of behavior doesn't stop at college either - I know many Investment Bankers on Wall Street who do coke and speed in order to stay up and pull all nighters so they can finish the pitchbook for the MD. If the NYPD wants to make some serious drug busts, they should stop looking in ghettos and focus on the Wall Street mailrooms.
Sorry, but I am old enough to be your mother -- things have changed since I rode a dinosaur to school. When I was in college, caffeine and uppers were it. We didn't have the www for research or to communicate, we had to spend copious hours in the stacks. The absence of the www and all of the information about new ways to stimulate our CNS weren't there. You had to know someone who knew someone to hook you up. Also bear in mind that this was during the Draconian Rockefeller drug law era. Kids in NYS were a lot more cautious.
Your roommate snorting Adderall (fwiw brand name drugs are capitalized) is as bad as the article initially posted. Did you intervene, did you stand by silently and condone this behavior, or did you, too, engage in it rationalizing that if you acheived the desired end results, that it was acceptable?
Abusing/selling prescription drugs (when the abuser/seller is not the person with a valid script) should be treated in the same manner as dealers are handled. Students fail to see the criminality in their actions, and tend to dismiss the fact that their flippant use of Adderall, Ritalin, et. al., could wind up with very dire circumstances.
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Again, I don't see why this is so bad that the parents are pushing the kids to do well. If you watched the videos before, these kids in India are studying from 4-8am, and then go to regular school. They do this 7 days a week, all for the 3000 coveted spots at IIT. Compared to that, these stories of Long Islanders are nothing. Health and sanity is not an issue. These kids from India are sane, and they aren't dying from too much studying or homework.
The Long Island children in the article posted are not all receiving parental pressure to hyper-achieve. Pushing a child to do well means different things to different people. I was grounded if I received less than an 90. One of my friends would get physically sick if she received less than an A. Another friend would get beaten. Yes. Beaten. This was in the days before people began taking child abuse seriously. Several of us went with her to the principal's office to explain her situation, an intervention of sorts, and know what? The school called her mother! She wasn't in school the next day.
Parents who place their children on the rat race treadmill, cramming activities into their schedule to fatten up their college apps, who spend more time driving them from A to B to C without hearing what they have to say, who feel that a hyper-achieving child is a status symbol disgust me. A child needs love, acceptance for who they are and some semblance of a normal home life -- whether or not their family is intact.
Driving one's child from activitiy to activity is not parenting. Making them feel like failures if they don't get into the Ivy of their choice is not parenting. Making them sweat the future when they are scarcely out of diapers is not parenting. A neurotic child who has been raised under that pressure cooker might do well for a while, but who knows what effect long term stress on a growing child will have when they are in their 40's.
A child needs balance. A child who is forced to perform, who is not allowed a normal childhood, will end up being a psychiatrist's cash cow. You're young and it's not obvious to you yet, but wait and see what happens in about 15 years from now.
Comparing children in India to American (LI) children, without taking into account core differences in our social, religious, and cultural mores, is apples to oranges.
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I push myself extremely hard to get ahead in my career (I'm 23). When many 23 year olds are out partying, I'm studying for the CFA and/or GMAT. Am I doing this to please my parents? No. They are just happy that I have a white collar job and I'm not working at Starbucks. I want XYZ and I believe that I have to do ABC to get there, so I make sacrifices. This is exactly what those kids in the article are doing.
Is your career something that will make you happy 30 years from now, or are you doing it for the bottomline, forsaking your future happiness? I was out to dinner last night with a number of friends who are research scientists. They aren't making a fortune, but they love what they do, have nice homes, families, and are making a difference in the world. While I don't know you, I wish the same for you as I do my own children -- that your chosen path brings you happiness, provides a good future, and that you make a positive difference in whatever you engage in.
Your parent's aren't pushiing you, you are pushing you. You're young, energetic and bright. You have laid out a plan and are sticking to it, realizing that sometimes you have to make sacrifices. But -- do you risk your personal health and call it a 'sacrifice'? The children in this article are doing that. They are pushing their bodies, not allowing themselves the rest that a developing teen body needs. The sharpest of minds will falter if the body isn't healthy. It's only a matter of time.
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I don't understand what you mean by " A parent has to step in and teach a child how to use their time constructively"? Is studying / homework not constructive? Perhaps they should be watching the newest episode of Gossip Girl?
UGH -- mindless TV.
Studying and homework are certainly constructive, let's not skew what I've written. If a student has their schedule booked to the point where they can not engage in some normal social interaction with their peers, a parent has to look at what their child is doing and discuss with them why they are overloading. If their studies are consuming all of their time, yes, their time needs to be managed constructively. They do need a little downtime to spend with friends, a movie on Friday night, a day at the beach in the nice weather, engage in normal social behavior. Once again, it's about balance. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
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I do not live in LI, but I do know that many people who live there are very successful in their careers. I think it is great that these successful people are pushing their children to eventually become even more successful than they themselves are. Because isn't that one of the things America is about - having your kids live a better life than you live now?
Stay hungry kids. Someday America can be great again.
I live on LI in an area which is considered to be full of very successful and affluent people. (Google local resident billionaire James Simons) I have children in the schools and see the pressure which some families place upon their children. Mom's an MD, dad's a PhD and junior has no choice but to follow in their footsteps. I've witnessed parental interfence in grade school science fair projects. When I first moved here 2 local HS students committed suicide on the LIRR tracks because they felt such intense pressure in school despite being stellar students; the following year a SUSB student laid down on the tracks -- his 3.8 GPA being his 'shame'.
These hyper-achievers are hungry, but not for success. They are hungry for acceptance and love from their families, acceptance and friendship from the peers. Our fore fathers did not make America great by munching on Adderall and Ritalin.
America will be great again once people learn to find the drive within themselves and forsake chemical crutches.
I did varsity sports for a while in college - so I never did Adderall or Ritalin for fear of what would happen to my body. To this day, I've never even touched a cup of coffee. As for my roommate - it's a free country, right? If he wanted to snort Adderall during finals week, so be it. It is not like he was doing it every day and was hooked on the stuff. One week, twice a year for him.
In my opinion, these kids do lead a very active, social life. Yes, they study alot, but remember, many of them are on varsity teams at school, science Olympiad, honor societies, etc. Plenty of time for interaction and socialization. The only difference is that putting this on a college app holds more weight than "Hanging out at the mall". It is not like they run home after school and study until 2AM every day. The kids in India study more because they do not have these extracurricular activities.
Why do I push myself? I, like many teens, grew up in a materialistic society. Especially in NYC, you see this everywhere. Unlike most of my peers, I studied my a$$ off in grammar/secondary school so I knew that I was smart enough to do a lot of things. Only problem is, I didn't care. Teaching 3rd grade? Finding a cure for cancer? Writing the next great novel? Creating the next version of Microsoft? I am bright enough to do any of things. I had the grades in school. 99th percentile on all standardized exams. But I didn't care for any of those. Truth is, the only thing that made me happy is money (Like they say, "It's how you keep score"). I grew up in Queens (when it was bad) and received scholarships to Catholic schools. Comparing my parents (relatively) lower income to that of my more well off friends from school, and combining that with all of the seven/eight figure incomes I read about in the newspaper, and I do want more in life. Really, nothing would make me happy 30 years from now. I could believe that something does, but I'd be bored with it within 6 months. So why not focus on the money? I do believe I am risking my health how (sleeping 5 hours a night, passing out on the subway), but you only get one shot, and you have to take it when you're young, otherwise you miss the boat. It's not like I'm doing cocaine every night to stay awake and study....
And think about the parents? How would they feel if Mom's a Doctor, Dad's a Lawyer, and junior's working at McDonalds at 28, while the kid from the working class family 2 towns over is making 6-figures at a hedge fund at 24? I know they are supposed to love the kid regardless, but in a sense wouldn't it make them feel somewhat like failures as parents? How is the kid going to live a decent life? Retire comfortably?
Clearly money is important to you. You feel the accumulation of wealth will bring you satisfaction. It may, but more often than not, the pursuit of success leads to broken friendships, families, and deteriorating health.
There is a big difference between a successful hedge fund manager and a McDonald's worker. I don't think anyone is advocating laziness. I'm one of the biggest capitalists around, but you have to have some balance in your life.
You are right that China, and to a lesser extent, India will begin to kick America's butt in the coming 20-25 years. But, that's isn't because American students aren't working hard enough. The reason is that those countries have MASSIVE pools of cheap skilled labor. The cost of productions and services there are simply something we cannot compete against. It's all economics.
Unless the US has incredible new breakthroughs in nanotechnology, robotics, medical tech, or other new areas that really change human existence, it will fall as a world super power.
NYCAnalyst: You have a lot of book experience, but haven't had enough time to apply it all to real world time. I felt a sadness for you when you wrote, "Truth is, the only thing that made me happy is money..." and"Really, nothing would make me happy 30 years from now. I could believe that something does, but I'd be bored with it within 6 months. So why not focus on the money? I do believe I am risking my health how (sleeping 5 hours a night, passing out on the subway), but you only get one shot, and you have to take it when you're young, otherwise you miss the boat. It's not like I'm doing cocaine every night to stay awake and study...."
No one is condoning laziness.
The children in the post in question do not have normal social life. Participating in a competitive sport is not social interaction. They are not exchanging ideas, discussing aspirations, conditions in 3rd world countries, volunteering for groups like Habitat for Humanity. They are kicking balls and trading blows. Excercise is good, but the soul needs nourishment, too. Once again -- balance is needed.
Part of the problem we have is answered in your last post. When I asked about your roommate, and whether you intervened or silently condoned his drug use, you replied, "..it's a free country, right? If he wanted to snort Adderall during finals week, so be it." Many people are more concerned about what's in it for them, and have little regard for those around them. Just look at the corporate execs of many of these companies which received government bailouts. How can we expect to have a strong country when there are people who are more concerned about their own personal good and who have no interest in the greater good?
I am a firm believer in taking accountability for one's self first and helping those around me and hope to instill that in my children through action, not books. My children do well in school (oldest is AP and honors), receive help if they fall short, participate in sports, music and dance, religious education, youth groups/community service, and work. Time is always set aside for them to be with their friends being kids. You're only young once -- there are no mulligans when you're an adult.
Agewise we are on opposite sides of the fence. I've been there, done that and have experience in my corner (and on my hips ) while you're fresh out of the starting gate, blinders on and entering the first turn. My wish for you is that you do find something that will bring you happiness for a long time and that you achieve the success you desire. My request of you is that you realize I do not advocate laziness, that I believe that overworking a young student with no balance is unhealthy. It's a balanced diet for the brain and soul.
Participating in a competitive sport is not social interaction. They are not exchanging ideas, discussing aspirations, conditions in 3rd world countries, volunteering for groups like Habitat for Humanity. They are kicking balls and trading blows. Excercise is good, but the soul needs nourishment, too. Once again -- balance is needed.
I highly disagree with this part of your post. Time spent at practice, in the weight room, in the locker room, on the bus to/from games, etc, provide ample time for social interaction. Nobody's lifting weights for 60 minutes, straight, without a break after practice. I ran track for 4 years in HS (and a bit in college), and I still keep in touch with many of my teammates - sometimes we go out for drinks after work.
The same can be said for activities such as the school choir, band, honor society, debate team, math olympiad, etc. Nobody's playing the trumpet, solving math equations, etc, for 2 hours straight.
I'm not sure about your kids (perhaps they are lying to you ), but in my experience, no group of high school studens are talking about conditions in 3rd world countries, aspirations in life (in depth), the plight of the homeless, or anything that you and I could consider "intellectual". For the most part, 99% of the conversations include: What you got on question #7 on last nights Math HW, why the Yankees / Mets are great / suck, who's dating who, who's sleeping with who, who would you date / sleep with, who's the hottest freshman girl / senior boy, can your mom give me a ride home from SAT prep class, why I hate this teacher, etc. I can still recall most of these conversations and they took place either on the practice field or through (very) crude locker room talk...
And in regards to long term happiness...I'd like to have the option of retiring at 40...and to get there, I have to have money, right? As for what I'd like to do for a living, well I'd like to do what Louis Winthorp III and Billy Ray Valentine do!
I highly disagree with this part of your post. Time spent at practice, in the weight room, in the locker room, on the bus to/from games, etc, provide ample time for social interaction. Nobody's lifting weights for 60 minutes, straight, without a break after practice. I ran track for 4 years in HS (and a bit in college), and I still keep in touch with many of my teammates - sometimes we go out for drinks after work.
I was manager for the HS soccer team for several years. The discussion on the bus to/from games consisted of boobs, bones, babes and BJs. It was the typical lowbrow, high testosterone nonsense that many HS boys spew out. They bullied the boy who they deemed 'gay' wolf whistled at passing girls. Much of the behavior was caused by peer pressure. This is not normal social interaction. Years later, one of the bully jocks came out of the closet. The guy who was bullied was straight.
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The same can be said for activities such as the school choir, band, honor society, debate team, math olympiad, etc. Nobody's playing the trumpet, solving math equations, etc, for 2 hours straight.
This is social interaction based upon preformed peer groups as opposed to naturally occuring groups. If you're not on the robotics team, you can't participate and are excluded. Many of the students on math olympiad have friends outside of it; should they be limited to m.o. peers only? Again, it's not normally occurring social interaction.
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I'm not sure about your kids (perhaps they are lying to you ), but in my experience, no group of high school studens are talking about conditions in 3rd world countries, aspirations in life (in depth), the plight of the homeless, or anything that you and I could consider "intellectual". For the most part, 99% of the conversations include: What you got on question #7 on last nights Math HW, why the Yankees / Mets are great / suck, who's dating who, who's sleeping with who, who would you date / sleep with, who's the hottest freshman girl / senior boy, can your mom give me a ride home from SAT prep class, why I hate this teacher, etc. I can still recall most of these conversations and they took place either on the practice field or through (very) crude locker room talk...
My oldest belongs to 2 humanitarian groups and has helped raise awareness (as well as money) for a number of causes. The group has also worked on Habitat for Humanity sites. Unlike a sports team or scholastic club, the groups are open to anyone who wishes to join. My youngest is currently in a community service group oriented toward her age group and they are working to help a local non profit which has fallen on hard times in the current economic climate.
They have no reason to lie as you would like to insinuate.
I can't speak for students from Queens, but there are a fair number of students on LI who are involved in such endeavors. Don't dismiss what you aren't familiar with.
Potty mouth conversations (such as you and I both indicated) are hardly rewarding. I've listened to conversations in the car after the movies. One friend is very artistic and has taken several film classes. The discussion involved camera angles, lighting, plot, etc. Granted some of the conversations were about who was high in ____ class, but that's part of teenage conversation. Questioning, reasoning, engaging in conversation help children develop bonds, weed out undesirable friends. You wrote you still see some of your teammates. Why not the others? Off the field, outside of the locker room, did you come to learn that their interests were not the same as yours?
As a HS student, did you make time for yourself to see your friends on a Friday or go to an occasional party? If you did - that's bringing some balance into a hectic schedule. Or did you stay in and constantly keep your nose to the grindstone? The students in the OP appear to be of the later group.
Even if the kids come over for a study group and decide to take a break and walk to the corner store for an ice cream or a soda -- it's free time -- even if it's only 20 mins. Their conversation won't be dictated by the coach's practice schedule, the sweat that Bobby didn't wipe off the bench, can we wire X to Y for our robot to kick the other HS's butt? Maybe I sound silly to you, but the children do need the opportunity for free time/free thought.
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And in regards to long term happiness...I'd like to have the option of retiring at 40...and to get there, I have to have money, right?
Good option, good goal. Keep plugging away, just don't overtax your body. You don't want to be 40 with ulcers and heart problems.
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As for what I'd like to do for a living, well I'd like to do what Louis Winthorp III and Billy Ray Valentine do!
OK, you're officially a silly goose.
Weren't they OJ speculating or something akin to that? It's been a while.
I did varsity sports for a while in college - so I never did Adderall or Ritalin for fear of what would happen to my body. To this day, I've never even touched a cup of coffee. As for my roommate - it's a free country, right? If he wanted to snort Adderall during finals week, so be it. It is not like he was doing it every day and was hooked on the stuff. One week, twice a year for him.
Why do I push myself? I, like many teens, grew up in a materialistic society. Especially in NYC, you see this everywhere. Unlike most of my peers, I studied my a$$ off in grammar/secondary school so I knew that I was smart enough to do a lot of things. Only problem is, I didn't care. Teaching 3rd grade? Finding a cure for cancer? Writing the next great novel? Creating the next version of Microsoft? I am bright enough to do any of things. I had the grades in school. 99th percentile on all standardized exams. But I didn't care for any of those. Truth is, the only thing that made me happy is money (Like they say, "It's how you keep score"). I grew up in Queens (when it was bad) and received scholarships to Catholic schools. Comparing my parents (relatively) lower income to that of my more well off friends from school, and combining that with all of the seven/eight figure incomes I read about in the newspaper, and I do want more in life. Really, nothing would make me happy 30 years from now. I could believe that something does, but I'd be bored with it within 6 months. So why not focus on the money? I do believe I am risking my health how (sleeping 5 hours a night, passing out on the subway), but you only get one shot, and you have to take it when you're young, otherwise you miss the boat. It's not like I'm doing cocaine every night to stay awake and study....
And think about the parents? How would they feel if Mom's a Doctor, Dad's a Lawyer, and junior's working at McDonalds at 28, while the kid from the working class family 2 towns over is making 6-figures at a hedge fund at 24? I know they are supposed to love the kid regardless, but in a sense wouldn't it make them feel somewhat like failures as parents? How is the kid going to live a decent life? Retire comfortably?
Your post reveals a common mis-belief about money and self-worth/happiness.
Money will not make you happy in the real, long-term way it matters.
You may have been smart in school or are savvy in your current money-focused position, but that doesn't make you smart in life. Not to sound preachy, but money is not what matters in life. And you could end up either alone or very unhappy if it stays your #1 priority.
If the parents above have a kid working at McDonalds, then so be it. That is that adult kid's choice. If they feel like failures, that feeling is about their Ego, not about their kid. Love is unconditional. Parents shouldn't measure love according to their kids' occupation or salary (but they'll sure give them grief!). Most parents just want their kids to be safe and happy and have a normal life. Everyone is on their own path. Everyone has intrinsic value that supercedes material wealth. Don't let money determine your self worth.
Last edited by ambralita; 11-09-2009 at 02:58 PM..
I still see some of my teammates. The others are either in graduate school, moved away, or are in the military. While this activity did take up much of my time in school, that is not to say that I didn't have any friends who didn't participate in any sports / clubs.
I've done the "overachiever" thing. Unfortunately I never really felt stress from it as I was never challenged in high school. (Massive grade inflation - over 50% of students on the honor roll). However I was admitted to (and did attend) an elite college due to my grades and struggled with the work, because I wasn't used to it. It is my opinion that yes, while these students are pushing themselves hard, most of these overachievers will attend a top college (even if it's not their first choice) and will be better prepared for it.
Yes, kids should be kids, but if they have the ability, why not try their best? American distance runner Steve Prefontaine once said, "To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift".
Or perhaps it is just their personality? I believe the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator is ENTJ. (ENTJ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). These types of people are very rare but they do exhibit these tendencies. I may or may not be one of them, since I've never actually taken an MBTI test. Personally, I prefer an extremely hectic schedule - not having a structured schedule makes me stressed. I guess you can call me a stress junkie - and I am pretty sure that at least some of these kids are the same way.
Also, I am wondering if you ever saw the below video and have any comments?
I still see some of my teammates. The others are either in graduate school, moved away, or are in the military. While this activity did take up much of my time in school, that is not to say that I didn't have any friends who didn't participate in any sports / clubs.
I've done the "overachiever" thing. Unfortunately I never really felt stress from it as I was never challenged in high school. (Massive grade inflation - over 50% of students on the honor roll). However I was admitted to (and did attend) an elite college due to my grades and struggled with the work, because I wasn't used to it. It is my opinion that yes, while these students are pushing themselves hard, most of these overachievers will attend a top college (even if it's not their first choice) and will be better prepared for it.
Yes, kids should be kids, but if they have the ability, why not try their best? American distance runner Steve Prefontaine once said, "To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift".
Or perhaps it is just their personality? I believe the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator is ENTJ. (ENTJ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). These types of people are very rare but they do exhibit these tendencies. I may or may not be one of them, since I've never actually taken an MBTI test. Personally, I prefer an extremely hectic schedule - not having a structured schedule makes me stressed. I guess you can call me a stress junkie - and I am pretty sure that at least some of these kids are the same way.
Also, I am wondering if you ever saw the below video and have any comments?
I'll check out the video later, have a funeral to attend but wanted to give a quick chirp.
I think we are on the same page in the portion I've highlighted. The emphasis is on sacrifice. You don't want to sacrifice the 'gift', nor do you want to see childhood sacrificed. It all goes back to balance, which has been my focus all along.
What's good for one isn't always best for the other. Yes, some of the students shown might thrive on the stress at that point in their lives, but for some there comes a day when they slam headfirst into the wall -- crash and burn. Kids do need some free time to toss a Frisbee, walk to the store for an ice cream, hang out and listen to the latest release by their favorite band, attend concerts, hit the beach, wander about NYC and absorb things. Do I advocate this 24/7? Of course not, but life experience helps round an individual.
One thing I didn't notice in the article was the students taking in (to name a few) MOMA, The Museum of Natural History, theatre, Lincoln Center -- there was no cultural element to their studies. There's a richness that can be added to character which is lost when children do not have access to such things.
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) while you're fresh out of the starting gate, blinders on and entering the first turn. My wish for you is that you do find something that will bring you happiness for a long time and that you achieve the success you desire. My request of you is that you realize I do not advocate laziness, that I believe that overworking a young student with no balance is unhealthy. It's a balanced diet for the brain and soul.
