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I believe you're partially right in that a teacher of Chem or Math would make much more being a scientist in private industry than that person makes teaching.
However, a first grade teacher, IMO, has a much more difficult and more job with greater responsibilities than a HS Chem teacher in many respects. I just don't think you can say in general that this or that subject/specialty is harder than any other, and if harder, they deserve more pay.
A Prez of a Morgan Stanley or a Bear Sterns, for example, makes many times more than the Prez of the US. Is their job more difficult? Do they have greater responsibilities? No.
There's really no correlation between pay and difficulty of a job in our current society. Whether there should be or not is certainly open to discussion, but that's a subject that has been under discussion for many many decades.
P.S. Goukas. Recall that name fondly as an old time fan of the St. Joe Hawks!
I go by who can teach what. Kids are able to be home schooled easily through middles school. Why? Because its basically basics. Once you get to higher grades and AP courses we start to see things differently. Just about everyone can teach 1-2-3's but not that many people understand with the ability to teach organic chemistry.
I go by who can teach what. Kids are able to be home schooled easily through middles school. Why? Because its basically basics. Once you get to higher grades and AP courses we start to see things differently. Just about everyone can teach 1-2-3's but not that many people understand with the ability to teach organic chemistry.
Comparing public vs. private salary is a bit off.
KNOWING the A,B,C's is MUCH MUCH different than being able to properly TEACH them to a Class of 25 - 35 kids of differing abilities and backgrounds all at the same time.
Teachers in the younger grades are the ones setting the course for their students. They are learning "from scratch" at this point! All these new ideas about letters and numbers and how to write them, how to form words, read those words, understand them - all new.
Any learning disabilities are found in the younger grades and teachers have to know how to deal with those to help the child learn the "basics".
Without qualified and good teachers in elementary, those secondary teachers would really have their work cut out for them.
By secondary school, kids are sorted pretty much by ability. The AP teacher doesn't have to deal with unmotivated, incapable students - they have the cream of the crop. Are the courses tough? Sure they are, and the students are supposed to be able to handle that.
Just because one teacher decided years ago to take secondary Chem classes for an education degree and another one decided to take elementary reading courses for an education degree, doesn't make one smarter or more able than the other. It was a preference they had for an age group to teach or for a subject area.
Sorry, but I know some secondary teachers who like to think they are equal to college professors, yet they don't know how to teach their subject to high school kids. That's just wrong. My husband teaches elementary and he has better math and science skills than the two people who are the district directors for those areas! One needs to know how to reach the brain of the children they are teaching so the child is successful, not just to slap a grade at them and say they didn't understand the material!
This idea of paying some secondary teachers more than the elementary ones is just ridiculous - and all because it is assumed they are smarter or are a better teacher because they teach AP? This is why we have administration evaluate staff and observe how they are doing - "bigger" isn't always better!!!
I'm somewhere in the middle with this latest debate.
There's no doubt that elementary school teachers are vital in laying a foundation for future success, but as mentioned by others, many of these fundamental skills are being taught in the home by the child's parents. In a sense, it is a collaborative effort between the teacher and parents in many cases. With that said, I also do not underestimate the difficulty in keeping things from quickly turning into a zoo when dealing with a bunch of young energetic kids that are apt to have short attention spans.
I have always heard that there are more opportunities for those looking to fill positions in math and/or science. Assuming that is accurate, I'd say that it's pretty easy to figure out why; it's a far more (intellectually) difficult track of study for the person looking for a teaching career than their counterparts at the elementary levels. In my opinion, anybody that says otherwise is either, uninformed, disingenuous or a bit delusional. The counterpoint (also mentioned above) is that you generally are dealing with more mature students who are motivated to succeed, making for a better teaching environment than what is experienced by the average elementary school teacher.
Ultimately, I'd go with what the numbers told me. If it is far more difficult to get a solid math/science teacher as opposed to an elementary school teacher, I'd be inclined to say that the former group is deserving of more pay than the latter group.
I'm somewhere in the middle with this latest debate.
There's no doubt that elementary school teachers are vital in laying a foundation for future success, but as mentioned by others, many of these fundamental skills are being taught in the home by the child's parents. In a sense, it is a collaborative effort between the teacher and parents in many cases. With that said, I also do not underestimate the difficulty in keeping things from quickly turning into a zoo when dealing with a bunch of young energetic kids that are apt to have short attention spans.
I have always heard that there are more opportunities for those looking to fill positions in math and/or science. Assuming that is accurate, I'd say that it's pretty easy to figure out why; it's a far more (intellectually) difficult track of study for the person looking for a teaching career than their counterparts at the elementary levels. In my opinion, anybody that says otherwise is either, uninformed, disingenuous or a bit delusional. The counterpoint (also mentioned above) is that you generally are dealing with more mature students who are motivated to succeed, making for a better teaching environment than what is experienced by the average elementary school teacher.
Ultimately, I'd go with what the numbers told me. If it is far more difficult to get a solid math/science teacher as opposed to an elementary school teacher, I'd be inclined to say that the former group is deserving of more pay than the latter group.
occum's razor The problem with the education debate is that both sides get too emotional. It's comical that anyone would even compare a calculus teacher with a kindergarten teacher.
occum's razor The problem with the education debate is that both sides get too emotional. It's comical that anyone would even compare a calculus teacher with a kindergarten teacher.
Your right....a kindergarten teacher is much more important to a students education than a calculus teacher.
I'm somewhere in the middle with this latest debate.
There's no doubt that elementary school teachers are vital in laying a foundation for future success, but as mentioned by others, many of these fundamental skills are being taught in the home by the child's parents. In a sense, it is a collaborative effort between the teacher and parents in many cases. With that said, I also do not underestimate the difficulty in keeping things from quickly turning into a zoo when dealing with a bunch of young energetic kids that are apt to have short attention spans.
I have always heard that there are more opportunities for those looking to fill positions in math and/or science. Assuming that is accurate, I'd say that it's pretty easy to figure out why; it's a far more (intellectually) difficult track of study for the person looking for a teaching career than their counterparts at the elementary levels. In my opinion, anybody that says otherwise is either, uninformed, disingenuous or a bit delusional. The counterpoint (also mentioned above) is that you generally are dealing with more mature students who are motivated to succeed, making for a better teaching environment than what is experienced by the average elementary school teacher.
Ultimately, I'd go with what the numbers told me. If it is far more difficult to get a solid math/science teacher as opposed to an elementary school teacher, I'd be inclined to say that the former group is deserving of more pay than the latter group.
It has been my experience over the last decade or so, that the reason it is more difficult to hire math/science teachers is that 1) very few college kids graduate with those degrees as compared to elementary or other secondary subjects and 2) some of those who managed to graduate with that math/science teaching certification aren't good teachers and don't really have a good grasp of their subject! It's pretty bad when the students know more than the teacher!
It has been my experience over the last decade or so, that the reason it is more difficult to hire math/science teachers is that 1) very few college kids graduate with those degrees as compared to elementary or other secondary subjects and 2) some of those who managed to graduate with that math/science teaching certification aren't good teachers and don't really have a good grasp of their subject! It's pretty bad when the students know more than the teacher!
This is a bigger problem than many admit: Martin L. Gross in "The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools", describes how the typical teacher is academically inferior and trained in dubious "educational psychology" and faddish "whole language" methods. Indeed, according to Gross, " ... (M)ost teachers and administrators come from the bottom third of their class and are outscored on the SAT tests by their own college-bound students."
This is a bigger problem than many admit: Martin L. Gross in "The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools", describes how the typical teacher is academically inferior and trained in dubious "educational psychology" and faddish "whole language" methods. Indeed, according to Gross, " ... (M)ost teachers and administrators come from the bottom third of their class and are outscored on the SAT tests by their own college-bound students."
Although I've disagreed with most of your posts regarding the quality of Long Island teachers, I do have to agree with your assessment of ed. programs (although I'm sure they vary from school to school). Whole language hasn't been used in a while, but there are 'fads' and none of them can prepare a teacher for what actually goes on in the classroom other than ... teaching.
In our defense, however, secondary teachers are content specialists and elementary teachers are experts in child psychology. (In fact, I think the course load at my school was heavier for elementary ed. teachers than it was for secondary). There's a lot more to obtaining those degrees than taking methods courses!
As for the study regarding teacher SAT scores, I can't argue with you because I only know my own scores. They were high. And I was among the top 10% in my graduating class. Please excuse me for tooting my own horn. It's something I rarely do, but you have to acknowledge that -- if this study is accurate -- there are always exceptions! By the way, does that study apply specifically to Long Island or the nation as a whole? Going by the title, I'd assume the latter in which case, those statements might be irrelevant in the context of this discussion.
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The problem with the education debate is that both sides get too emotional. It's comical that anyone would even compare a calculus teacher with a kindergarten teacher.
