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With all due respect - theres a massive difference between someone with a van life youtube channel and whats being discussed in this thread.
Stealth car/van camping is just that - stealth. Those folks pride them selves on leaving no trace vs. a 20ft camper with no air in the tires for "several months".
The vast majority of vandwellers do not have a YouTube channel. I was using it as an example that many people WITHOUT a YouTube channel are working remotely from their RV or other vehicle. Lots and lots of people.
My posts were addressing the person who was railing about homelessness in general, not the guy with the deflated tires, and calling all of them mentally ill criminals. In my recent posts I was not addressing the issue of the original poster who posted this thread in July 2010. His issue was quickly resolved because the person moved his vehicle. (see post #17)
There is considerable misunderstanding and debate - and study - about mental illness and substance abuse as causation for homelessness John. Scholarly studies have concluded baffling differences of findings. One, for instance, concluded that only about 15% of homeless abused drugs / alcohol prior to becoming homeless. Others report nearly 2/3rds of homeless are abusing alcohol and or drugs.
Some scholarly studies have dissected the emergence of substance abuse among the homeless as occurring as a result of the stresses of being homeless. (And those numbers are high in any case.)
Rather than argue a position in this field, I’ll point out that substance abuse - and mental illness - are HUGELY present in the housed population, as well as among the homeless. 10s of millions in America at any given time, of each category. Yet there are but a rough average of ½ million homeless at any given time.
Fact also: between 2.5 and 3 million persons experience homelessness at some point each year. Since 500,000 is the approximate total at ‘points in time’ we can see support for the estimate that over 3/4s of homeless are rehoused within less than a year of their troubles.
All this brings us back to the reality that, since the vast majority of substance abusers and mentally ill in America are NOT homeless*the primary cause of homelessness is neither substance abuse, nor mental illness … it is unaffordable housing*.
So, the segment of substance abusers and mentally ill - (and by the way, there are at the very least ⅓ of the homeless who are neither mentally ill nor addicts) - who DO end up homeless are different from those who remained housed … how?
Yes, family / support networks … and finances.
All said above, back to one of my original questions: *what are you trying to get at?*
Your suggestion that *political solutions / failures* are at root is lacking. The reality is that it is our transactional, capitalist, consumer culture that is at root. I’m not a communist, socialist, fascist - I’m an armchair anthropolog*ist**. And the FACT is: homo sapiens are not structured, physiologically nor psychologically, to live in large societies. Dunbar’s Number (look it up … it is unchallenged in anthropology academia) demonstrates the maximum size of empathetic social network for humans runs at about 165 individuals. After that, we begin to lose the natural social dynamics our neocortexes can handle. We are designed to live most successfully in small clans and troops.
Humans are capable of existing as we do in huge societies, because we have stunning intellectual capacities. But we aren’t designed, by nature to exist this way. Substance abuse and mental illness are collateral effects of living outside our natural boundaries. Some people have support networks where others fall further apart.
It’s not really political. It’s cultural and economics.
If that is your stance, we will never agree. I don’t actually care what people do until it affects others
So the question isn’t what to do with the homeless. It’s what do we do with the levels of filth, the crime, and the associated impact it has on the remaining 10 million people in LA. The actions of the 80,000 homeless in LA County are in fact the issue.
Ancillary is the literal waste of several billion dollars the government has spent in the past ten years “addressing” the homeless situation.
Excellent post Tulemutt. Unfortunately people won't take the time to read it, let alone digest the content. And they don't want to believe it anyway.
Such people think that the current homeless are like the hobos of the 50's and 60's who walked and rode the rails, jumping and sleeping in boxcars.
The arrogance of people endlessly asserting that the vast majority of homeless are mentally ill, or alcohol/drug addicted is astounding and sad. (I would use another word but I'd get slapped.) ARROGANCE against many fine, upstanding citizens WHO "MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING WRONG TO END UP WHERE THEY ARE!" NO. That is simply not true for a large percentage of the currently homeless.
Pity it isn't the arrogant condescenders who walk in their shoes, so they'd know what it's ACTUALLY like. Of course, many of YOU'd never end up that in that situation, now would you? Many of you are "so perfect" that you're beyond catastrophe.
The way to cure homelessness is to require each and every city councilman and other city official to live on the street with a small but not enough stipend. Even then, back in their comfy homes, they'd forget all about doing something to actually end homelessness.
As for the original intention of this thread, the majority of stealth campers don't want trouble. They don't want to be discovered. They want to be safe. They want to sleep. If some of them do cause trouble, just call the police or the HOA. Or you could just harass them and threaten to call the cops and they'll likely just move because they don't want trouble.
Affordable housing is the real issue. No matter what you try to assert.
LA County has spent $6.5 Billion in the past ten years. LA city has spent a few billion. Gruesome approved $12 billion. That doesn’t include federal funding nor does it include the organizations that are entirely privately funded. It’s clearly not the politicians lacking the will to spend taxpayer money.
If that is your stance, we will never agree. I don’t actually care what people do until it affects others
So the question isn’t what to do with the homeless. It’s what do we do with the levels of filth, the crime, and the associated impact it has on the remaining 10 million people in LA. The actions of the 80,000 homeless in LA County are in fact the issue.
Ancillary is the literal waste of several billion dollars the government has spent in the past ten years “addressing” the homeless situation.
What I explained is not my *stance* … it is the factual reality.
There aren’t 80,000 homeless, there are about 66,000 in LA County (which is a lot anyway) at any given point in time. Near 50,000 of them will transition back into housing within a year … but even as that many do, that many and probably somewhat more new homeless will take their places.
That said, while many of those 66,000 homeless are mentally ill or substance abusers - 10x or more that number of equally mentally ill and / or abusing drugs and alcohol are housed. The difference between the housed and un-housed comes down to support networks of family and friends …. AND lack of affordable housing for those without family-level support.
There’s no other difference between who’s on the street and those inside housing. Substance addiction and mental illness are substance addiction and mental illness - regardless of housing. (Though being on the streets will typically exacerbate the problems … but that is an after-effect, not a causative effect.)
You seem to believe there is something worse about those who have no support. I have helped a number of homeless - mostly vets, as I said - find housing, benefits, medical care over the past 30 years. I have literally carried some out of their ad hoc shelter and to hospital and treatment appointments. I also grew up with and later supported and cared for mentally ill and addicted family in my home for years … serious conditions (Borderline Personality Disorder, severe suicidal depression, and schizophrenia, alcoholism). Having dealt with these conditions extensively for years, both in my home and with strangers on the streets, I know the difference is just what I said: support and affordable housing … not the conditions themselves, nor how they got that way.
As for the $$ wasted? Sure. Lots of waste. But lots of successes too for some of that money. I joined an organization (30 years ago) that has successfully run several transitional housing projects for homeless vets … we do what we do through awards of mostly government grants (and some private non-profit foundation funds). Not one of us volunteers who run the organization take one penny of the money.
It seems as if the monies are all going down the drain because the streets don’t empty. But the problem is: new homeless are constantly occurring even faster than the old are being assisted.
It’s a mess, yes, for sure. But it is a collateral effect of our materialistic, overcrowded culture.
you can thank the aclu for suing the state decades ago that allowed homeless to leave those mental facilitates we had all over the state like the huge one in whittier
the state seems it should spend millions supporting illegals with lawyers, housing, medical care etc just think all that money could have done to help the mentally ill and addicts in those facilities if they were still open
but no the liberal crap of the aclu and liberals in that state decided years ago it was better to let them run around without the support they had
calif voters and politicians made this bed they need to sleep in it
you can thank the aclu for suing the state decades ago that allowed homeless to leave those mental facilitates we had all over the state like the huge one in whittier
the state seems it should spend millions supporting illegals with lawyers, housing, medical care etc just think all that money could have done to help the mentally ill and addicts in those facilities if they were still open
but no the liberal crap of the aclu and liberals in that state decided years ago it was better to let them run around without the support they had
calif voters and politicians made this bed they need to sleep in it
Lol. Do you know what the word *specious* means? Way to try and *speciously* politically oversimplify a VERY complex issue and history. While many, like you, try to lay it on the ACLU, many others try to blame it on Reagan. Both fingers are wrongly pointed.
If you were to objectively educate yourself on the issue, you’d examine the absolutely super-deplorable conditions and protocols that defined public mental health facilities and treatments historically. They should have been shut down. The problem to attack is why no sane and humane institutions have replaced the old… not who/why the old were closed.
But, most specifically to address this issue with regard to homelessness: only a very small percentage of homeless would qualify for forced commitment, in any case. The raging, mindless crazies are the most shockingly visible homeless … thus, intellectual laziness and incuriosity has painted them as the face of the homeless crisis.
They’re not.
They are a face of a mental illness crisis.
Homelessness is a MUCH larger and broader issue than those most wretched poster faces.
If you take the time and effort to read in any depth at all about mental illness among the homeless, you'll find that much of it is depression and anxiety disorders, in many cases caused by the state of becoming/being homeless.
NIMH estimates that roughly 14 million (5%) of our nation’s population lives with SMI (Severe Mental Illness) … yet there are but 500,000 total homeless in the nation at any given time typically. Where are all those 14 million? Very few are on the streets.
Deep psychoses, borderline-personality-disorder, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorders and other severe states certainly call for culling, managing, and housing safely and treating. Sure. Obviously. Meanwhile 90% of homelessness calls for quite different management.
I’m going to post a snapshot story here to illustrate the difference between:
the 10s of millions of mentally ill, plus 10s of millions of severe substance abusers … who are housed
and those many many fewer who have fallen into homelessness.
A brother-in-law of mine joined the Marine Corps at 17. Seemingly mentally fit and intact, about a year in, he crashed. Schizophrenia erupted. Super severe. No, being a Marine didn’t cause it. Schizophrenia has many roots, being a Marine isn’t one of them.
For about the next 25 years, his sister and I and his mother worked with the VA to keep him housed, fed, and clothed, and mostly medicated. He lived in various facilities and group homes … and with us at times. Sometimes, occasionally, he would hide his medications, stop taking them, and some of those times he would disappear on us briefly.
We always were able to track him down on the streets knowing his habits. Bring him back. Usually to hospital for reset … then back to our home or group living.
Were it not for his loving sister, the VA, [and me being concerned and experienced with veterans’ issues and support systems], Buddy would have been one of those bizarre street people. His other brothers were in jail and his father an institutionalized alcoholic. He wouldn’t have had other family or resources to keep him off the streets.
He didn’t bring his condition on himself. He was out there, stepping into manhood, joined up to serve his country … and **** happened.
Now, imagine Buddy hadn’t fallen ill, but rather just made bad choices that left him resourceless … and no VA, no loving sister, no brother-in-law who could / would take him in.
What should happen to someone who - through fault of their own, or no fault - has simply no resources and can’t find affordable housing to regroup in? What does this constant vilification of homeless solve?
The issue isn’t what did each of these people do to find themselves where they are. Fault or no fault they are everyone’s mess to deal with. The issue is affordable housing … it doesn’t exist to get them off the street.
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