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View Poll Results: Do you make enough to qualify for a home loan in L.A.?
Do you personally earn over $110,000.00 per annum- YES 86 29.35%
Do you personally earn over $110,000.00 per annum- NO 207 70.65%
Voters: 293. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-18-2006, 08:37 PM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,344,386 times
Reputation: 1832

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Pt. 2 of L.A. gangs:
NORTH EAST LA
TOONERVILLE, GLENDALE-ATWATER-TUJUNGA:JOKERS, LOS CRAZY VAGOS, NIGHT OWLS, LOMITA ST LOCOS, CHEVY CHASE PARK LOCOS, ATWATER LOCOS, DUKES, TOKERS, TINY LOCOS, YOUNGSTERS
WS THEE RASCALS, ATWATER
AVENUES AVENIDAS, EAGLE ROCK- HIGHLAND PARK- CYPRESS PARK- GLASSELL PARK- MT. WASHINGTON: CYPRESS CHICOS-ASESINOS-DREW ST, 43RD AVE, 50AVE, 60AVE, CYCLONES, NIGHT OWLS
HIGHLAND PARK
CYPRESS PARK
GLASSELL PARK
VARRIO NORTH EAST LOS ANGELES
EAST SIDE CLOVER, LINCOLN HEIGHTS
LINCOLN HEIGHTS
ROSE HILLS, MONTECITO HEIGHTS
HAPPY VALLEY
EL SERENO LOCKE STREET
ESR EL SERENO RIFA LOWELL ST
EAST SIDE EIGHTEEN STREET
HAZARDS
EAGLE ROCK TINY WINOS
TRES CANTOS
FADED BOYZ
MISCELLANEOUS:SURENOS, BOLAS, ATWATER VILLAGE
EAST LOS ANGELES
EAST SIDE WHITE FENCE: THE HOLES
MARAVILLA:HOLLO, MARRIANA, FORD, GAGE, ARIZONA, JUAREZ, RASCAL,FRASER, HIGH TIMES, POMEROY, LOTT, MOERAYA,PROJECTS,LOPEZ, ROCKA
EVERGREEN ST
MICHIGAN AVE CRIMINAL/CHICANO FORCE:EAST SIDE 1ST ST, SOUTH SIDE
VARRIO NUEVO ESTRADA: THE COURTS, VILLAINS, LOCOS
EAST LOS 13
GERAGHTY LOMA:ROCKWOODST
LOMAS
YOUNG BOYS RIFA
THE LOTT
LORENA
STATE STREET
BREED ST
LAGUNA PARK VIKINGS
EAST SIDE KRAZIES
LIL VALLEY
HAPPY VALLEY
LIL EAST SIDE
INDIANA DUKES
CHOPPERS12
STONERS, BOYLE HEIGHTS
BOYLE HEIGHTS
AL CAPONE
PRIMERA FLATS:ES
CUATRO FLATS
8TH ST
CRAZY DOGS
EAST LA RIFA
CLARENCE ST
WINTER GARDENS
ES THE MOB CREW
CITY TERRACE
SENTINEL
ES SS VICKEYSTOWN
AVE OXFORD BOYZ
21ST MALDITOS
HICKS ST
OPAL STREET
CENTRAL LA/WEST LA
FROGTOWN RIVERSIDE
ECHO PARK
WS CRAZIES: MAYBERRY ST LOCOS
LA MIRADA ST LOCOS
DESCANSO TINY WINOS
BARRIO SILVER LAKE
WS AZTLAN
BIG TOP LOCOS
WS TEMPLE STREET
DIAMOND ST
WS ROCKWOOD ST
HEAD HUNTERS
WSXV3ST:HOOVER LOCOS, COLUMBIA LIL CYCOS, SHATOO PARK, COLUMBIA TINY LOCOS, HOLLYWOOD GANGSTERS, DIABLOS, LOCOS, PEEWEES, PICO LOCOS, BROADWAY 54TH ST TLS, SMILY DRIVE, ALSACE AVE, HAWTHORNE CRIMINALS,7TH BROADWAY GANGSTERS, KING BOULEVARD BOYS
DOGTOWN, CHINATOWN-HIGHLAND PARK-GARDENA
5TH&HILL
WS MARA SALVATRUCHA: LEEWARD, WITMER ST, ADAMS, PARK VIEW LOCOS, 9TH ST, CORNONADO, HOLLYWOOD LOCOS, PASADENA LOCOS
CRAZY RIDERS
ORPHANS
WANDERERS
WS CLANTON 14TH STUKES, JOKERS, TINY LOCOS, PEEWEES, MIDGETS, LOCOS, CUT DOWNS,25TH ST
CARNALES,WS SS75TH ST
WEST SIDE WHITE FENCE
WS THE MAGICIANS CLUB
VIRGINIA ST LOCOS
WS PLAYBOYS
DRIFTERS
EASY RIDERS
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:40 PM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,344,386 times
Reputation: 1832
Pt. 3 of L.A. gangs:
WEST LA
REBELS
WEST SIDE LOCOS
ALKOHILIC BOYS
ALLEY BOYS
WS ALLEY LOCOS
SOTEL
CULVER CITY BOYZ
VENICE BOYS
SANTA MONICA 17TH ST
STREET VILLAINS CYCLONES, LOCOS, TOKERS
INVASIONEROS
LENNOX:HOLLYWOOD BANDITS, LAX LOCOS
TEPAS
INGLEWOOD
WS CRIMINALS 99ST
HELM ST
SOUTH CENTRAL LA, WS, SS, ES
HARPYS DEAD END:5TH AVE,27, 25TLS, WILD BUNCH, JULLITTE ST BOYS, GRANADA HILLS
TINY INSANE KRIMINALS
ALLEY TINY CRIMINALS:TOKERS, SPOOKY LANES,KING BOULEVARD LOKOS, KING PARQUE, 37ST
WS PRIMERA FLATS
SC18ST
MID CITY:STONERS, LOCOS, HOBART GRANDES,33ST, PALMDALE LOCOS, OCEAN PACIFIC LS, LIL CRIMINALS, KINGSLEY DRIVE CRENSHAW LOCOS, CRIMINALS,LONG BEACH LOCOS
22ND ST:ES SS
GHETTO BOYZ:ESSC 27ST,LONG BEACH 15TH ST
38TH ST:ES SS
42 ST LIL CRIMINALS
40THST
WASHINGTON BOYS
SOUTHXLOS
36ST
ES, WS, SS PLAYBOYS DUKES, CHICOS LOKOS, CHICOS MALOS, 49ST CYCLONES
STREET SAINTS DUKES
MOJADOS
ES CLANTON 14TH ST
21ST ST
MUERTOS 102ND
SOUTH SIDE FLORENCIA: NEIGHBORHOOD DUKES, KILLERS, LOCOS WS SS, 85TH ST, 90TH ST EAZY BOYS, 68ST, 66ST, 75TH ST, MALDITOS, TOKERS, NIGHT OWLS, DREAM BOYZ, TERMITES, 64ST, MALOS
80TH ST
BARRIO 13 CHICOS
COMPTON THUG LIFE
88TH ST
DISGUSTO
LA RAZA:WS SS
KRAZY ASS MEXICANS
MEXICAN KLAN
HANG OUT BOYZ
ES 55 BUNCH
29ST
35ST
39ST
36ST
SOUTH EAST LA, HARBOR AREA
HUNTINGTON PARK LOCOS
LIVE OAK ST
CUDAHY 13 CLARA ST
MAYWOOD LOCOS
UNSTOPABLE MEXICAN KINGS
GARDEN VIEW LOCOS
ORCHARD ST
BAD ASS YOUNGSTERS
SOUTH SIDE PLAYERZ
KANSAS ST
DOGPATCH
EAST SIDE PARAMOUNT
PARAMOUNT AVENUES
SOUTH SIDE XVIII ST:ENANOS LOCOS
DEF BOYZ
COLONIAL WATTS
BIG WATTS
SSWATTS
HICKORY ST WATTS
VICTORIA PARQUE LOCOS
ES LAKEWOOD
SARZANA
VARRIO LA MIRADA: DEAD ENDS, CUT-DOWNS, DUKES, GRANDES
LIL WATTS
WATTS VARRIO GRAPE STREET
WATTS VARRIO FRONT STREET
COMTON VARRIO LA TRES 133ST
COMPTON VARRIO LA CINCO 155ST
CV 70ST
CV TORTILLA FLATS
CV132
CV118
CV TOKERS
COMTON LOCOS
CV LARGO AND 36TH
CV 119
CV117
CV ALONDRA
CV SEGUNDO
LYNWOOD VARRIO SEGUNDO
LYNWOOD PARAGONS
LWV CRAZY CATS
LWDV TRAVIESOS
HARBOR CITY
VARRIO CENTRO TORRANCE
NORTH SIDE REDONDO
KEYSTONE
BEAR ST
LOS NIETOS RIFA
BROOK AVE LS
ES 6ST LONGBEACH
ES9ST
LOS COMPADRES VARRIO 3 WATTS
ORANGE ST LOCOS NWK
DEATH CROWD LOCOS
SOUTH GATE LOCOS
WEST SIDE WILMAS:CST
EAST SIDE WILMAS:LST
RANCHO SAN PEDRO
SAN PEDRO PARK WEST LOMAS
102ND ST
THE BRATZ
LIL BOYS
DOMINGUEZ VALLEY
WEST SIDE LONGO
EAST SIDE LONGO
BARRIO POBRE
NS LONGO
HAWAIIAN GARDENS
VARRIO NORWALK ONE WAYS, DUKES, NIGHTOWLS,LOCOS
LA RANA
VICRORIA PARK NIGHT OWLS
CHIVAS ARTESIA
ARTESIA BROWN TRIBE
SSLAKEWOOD
PEACEFULL VARRIO NORWALK
FAMILIA
CLICA LOS PRIMOS
204ST,PEEWEES
CATSKILL ST LOCOS
ES TORRANCE, DIABLOS, LIL RASKALS
CANTA RANAS
HARBOR LOMAS
LAWNDALE
GARDENA:WS,ES
CARSON
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:43 PM
 
1,398 posts, read 6,344,386 times
Reputation: 1832
Pt. 4 of L.A. gangs, including the San Gabriel area with some O.C.
SAN GABRIEL VALLEY
VARRIO PASA RIFA
NS PASA
VILLA BOYS PASA
KRAZY BOYS PASA
PASA LATIN KINGS
SS PASA
ES DUARTE
SAN DIMAS COLONIA PARQUE, LOCOS CHICOS
WEST COVINA
EAST SIDE DUKES
POMONA 12TH ST:SHARKIES
VARRIO MONROVIA
CHERYVILLE
SSPOMONA
NSPOMONA
POMONA MICHOACANOS
BOLEN PARK:NS ES
QUIET VILLAGE
WHITTIER DEAD END LOCOS
ROOKS TOWN
SS WHITTIER
WHITTIER VILLAGE
JIM TOWN
PICO NUEVO
PICO VIEJO
PICO LOCOS
RIVERA
JARDIN 13
ES KING KOBRAS
LA PUENTE
HACIENDA HEIGHTS
LIL HILL
SANGRA CHICOS
EL MONTE FLORES
EL MONTE HICKS
SS EL MONTE
EL MONTE HAYES ST
NS EL MONTE
BARTLETT ST
LIL HILL
HACIENDAXHEIGHTS
VALINDA FLATS
BASSET NIGHT OWLS
TEMPLE CITY
WS WALNUT
CLAREMONT
TOWNSEMEN- LA PUENTE
HACIENDA HEIGHTS
LIL HILL GANG
PUENTE TRECE TINFLANES
NORTH LA COUNTY, 661 AREA CODE
EAST SIDE PASILLO NUEVO, NEWHALL:ALLEY CATS, EIGHT BALL BOYS, LOCOS, TINY LOCOS, RASCALS, YOUNGSTERS, PEEWEES
SOUTH SIDE CRIMINALS
WEST SIDE LANCAS
CRAZY MEXICAN FAMILIA
WS VAL VERDE PARQUE 13 SMOKE TOWN,TINY LOCOS, MALDITOS
PALMAS13 DEADLY MINDS, CREATORS, YOUNGSTERS, KINGS
BARRIO CANYONES, LOCOS,STRANGERS, PLAYGIRLS
ORANGE COUNTY
FULLERTON TOKERS TOWN
LA HABRA CAMPO 13
WS LA HABRA
FULLERTON SUICIDAL GANG
MONOS
ANAHEIM JUNGLE CITY
ANAHEIM PENGUIN CITY
ANAHEIM JEFFREY STANAHEIM LATIN BOYS
FXTROOP
SANTA ANA 5TH ST, BROOK STREET, HIGHLAND
COSTA MESA
MALOS GANG
WS ANAHEIM
LA FABRICA
ANAHEIM DRIFTERS
CITRON STREET
PAULINE ST
LA UNA
ANAHEIM COLONIA
BOYS GANG
SANTA ANA DRIFTERS
LOGAN
ANAHEIM FOLKS
DEVIOUS HOODLUMS
BROWN NATION
BARRIO WALNUT
DOWN FAMILIA WICKED SOLDIERS
ANAHEIM PACIFIC
ANAHEIM BARRIO SMALL TOWN
LITTLE HOOD SANTA ANA COSTA MESA
MIDWAY CITY LOCOS
BIG STANTON
CROW VILLAGE
BUENA CLINTON
WEST MYRTAL
ALLEY BOYS
COMPADRES
OC CRIMINALS
ANAHEIM UNDER HILL
SOUTH SIDE HUNTINGTON BEACH
ALLEY LOCOS
CHERRY STREET
BAKER STREET BOYZ
SOUTH SIDE KRIMINALS
HEAD HUNTERS
GARDEN GROVE HARD TIMES
ANAHEIM TRAVELERS
BUENA PARQUE LOS COYOTES
EVIL KIDS SANTA ANA
ANAHEIM VERMONT ST
ES FULLERTON
ES 19ST COSTA MESA
WS VARRIO FORMING KAOS COSTA MESA
UNITED BY CRIME
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Old 06-18-2006, 09:54 PM
 
13 posts, read 107,823 times
Reputation: 33
I've heard that the HARDCORE FREAKS and the CRAZY ALLEY GANGSTERS are actually very sweet, once you get to know them...
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:29 AM
 
Location: L.A.
4 posts, read 47,655 times
Reputation: 12
Default Great that you're leaving.

Tired of this nerdy victim status.

Like B.H, Bel Air, Westwood and their mansions are populated with illegals, what an insane comment to imply that the poor have it the better here. It is them who fall victim to crime and violence overwhelmingly, not the more economically well-off, who can't stop blaming other groups for their failure to find satisfaction in their lives.
It's too bad that you can't find your happiness, but frankly, implying that people in Boyle Heights, McArthur park, Watts and Inglewood are more spoiled than the the average complainer on the Westside is a lie. It's just a victimhood blamegame.
Or, if the gangs and the poor have it so much better here, why not become one of them rather than relocating?
I think many poor already have enough of problems, and shouldn't have to be blamed for other's misfortunes on top of it.

Last edited by losangeles-metro; 06-20-2006 at 12:38 AM..
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Old 06-20-2006, 01:32 AM
 
1 posts, read 40,567 times
Reputation: 10
I think you forgot --

Brentwood Boyz
Beeches de Beverly Hills
Palisades Papas...and the ever popular Holmby Homies

I've lived here all my life, own a home and love it here despite it's faults, nowhere else can equal L.A..
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Old 06-20-2006, 07:55 PM
 
48 posts, read 251,283 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealAngelion
Fastfilm's remarks are grossly exaggerated and should not be taken seriously. Just because she lives in a gang infested neighborhood doesn't mean that the rest of LA does too.
Um, no. No one here ever said all of L.A. is gang-infested... just the areas people with average income and savings can afford. (Mind you... not poor - everybody knows they have gang problems... not rich - everybody knows they can afford to live in gated communities etc... average, as in middle class.) A statement which most people here seem to agree with.

Had you bothered to read further than the first post in this thread, you'd have seen all of the subsequent posts by others agreeing with her, photos of our neighborhoods, and various anecdotes of the same kinds of trouble she describes. What about all those other people in this thread who agree with her? Are they all hallucinating too? Come on now.

In order to respond intelligently, read through the whole thread so you know what you are responding to before you post. Then if you still disagree, once again I say stop putting people down and present some facts and figures. How much were you paying in rent? How much were you earning? What was the median price for housing in your area? Did you ever see gang members in your neighborhood? Did you ever have any problems with crime? Don't attack people, be an adult -- make your statements and back them up.

Lastly, please keep in mind that what you consider "not rich" and what most people consider "not rich" may be two entirely different things. That's why facts and figures are much more effective at making a point here.

Last edited by Ms.Phitt; 06-20-2006 at 07:59 PM..
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:08 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, ca
186 posts, read 806,363 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms.Phitt
Um, no. No one here ever said all of L.A. is gang-infested... just the areas people with average income and savings can afford. (Mind you... not poor - everybody knows they have gang problems... not rich - everybody knows they can afford to live in gated communities etc... average, as in middle class.) A statement which most people here seem to agree with.

Had you bothered to read further than the first post in this thread, you'd have seen all of the subsequent posts by others agreeing with her, photos of our neighborhoods, and various anecdotes of the same kinds of trouble she describes. What about all those other people in this thread who agree with her? Are they all hallucinating too? Come on now.

In order to respond intelligently, read through the whole thread so you know what you are responding to before you post. Then if you still disagree, once again I say stop putting people down and present some facts and figures. How much were you paying in rent? How much were you earning? What was the median price for housing in your area? Did you ever see gang members in your neighborhood? Did you ever have any problems with crime? Don't attack people, be an adult -- make your statements and back them up.

Lastly, please keep in mind that what you consider "not rich" and what most people consider "not rich" may be two entirely different things. That's why facts and figures are much more effective at making a point here.

1) Just an aside. You can buy a nice brand new 1800 sq foot home in a nice neighbrorhood, just outside of downtown Sacramento for the same price as an old dilapidated home in the middle of Compton.

2) A married couple with two college degrees would struggle to buy a home in COMPTON if they are coming from out of state. How sad is that? Its pathetic.

I completely agree with you and fast film in that regard.

I think that LA is nice if you are upper middle class, or a couple with two advanced degrees in high paying fields with 5 years experience. You dont have to be ultra wealthy (e.g. banker or surgeon) in my opinion to enjoy LA.

I will add this. It would be EXTREMELY hard to buy a one bedroom condo anywhere in SF bay area for the price of a house in compton. Yeah, the SF Bay area is safer than LA, but you also dont have the optoin of being middle class.
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:19 PM
 
48 posts, read 251,283 times
Reputation: 391
Thank you, Jlrobe. These things are exactly what a lot of us here have been trying to explain.

For those of you who keep insisting we're all exaggerating, I got the following information from Frommer's Cities Ranked and Rated (2004), which uses respected sources of information like the U.S. Census, U.S. Office of Management and Budget, and the National Association of Realtors. This data is 2-4 years old, but you can certainly use it to get a basic idea of current conditions.

L.A. ranked 20th worst in the nation for average income vs. cost of living, out of 331 U.S. metropolitan areas evaluated. (FYI, over half the cities ranking worse than that are also in California.) With the average person's income at about $23,000 and the average (mostly 2-income) household income about $50,000, but the average price of a home at $304,600 and a decent one costing much more, you can see why only 39% of the people own homes here as opposed to the 54.5% national average. Average rent not much better at over $1,000/month. Moreover, L.A. was also 20th worst for projected future job growth, at 6.2% over 7 years (0.9% per year) - even while the population continued to increase by 3% between 2000-2002 (1.5% per year). It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that if the population keeps growing at almost twice the rate of employment, there's a serious problem here. Given the decreasing ability to find employment and the skyrocketing of housing costs since that study came out, what do you think the odds are that average people will find jobs that pay enough to make a decent living, much less buy a house?

On the ranking of best places to live, L.A. was an unimpressive 54, and would have ranked significantly lower except for the climate and the fact that there are lots of great things to do here *if* you can afford it. Despite recent efforts which have helped the air quality somewhat, L.A.'s air quality is the #1 worst in the nation, hands down... so much so that only 2 other cities even come within 50% of the pollution levels here. L.A. ranked the 3rd most crowded, 10th highest violent crime, and "dishonorable mention" for its urban sprawl. On a 100-point scale, 100 being best, L.A. a got a score of 5 for cost of living, 3 for health and healthcare, and a mediocre 57 for general quality of life.

It also describes how L.A. used to be a wonderful place overall in the 1950's but has slid downhill badly since; it warns that if you don't have "extensive" financial resources the decent areas are pretty much "inaccessible" and people with average financial means are better off to "look elsewhere" or they will face "the full impact" of the problems here; it describes a thick brown cloud over the city for most of the year, "extreme" traffic problems, and every available scrap of land crammed with as much development as possible. All the same things FastFilm and others have been telling everyone. Or maybe the U.S. government, researchers and realtors are also "grossly exaggerating," so that FastFilm and the rest of us can all push our hidden anti-L.A. agenda here.
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Old 06-23-2006, 01:53 PM
 
436 posts, read 593,729 times
Reputation: 243
I keep hearing the same statement over and over again, "So, if you didn't buy into neighborhood X with prop X artificially locking down your property taxes at such & such a time in the past you're s__ out of luck". I'm not talking about living high, I'm talking about living Cali middle class. Doesn't matter if you've got that graduate degree or if you're a couple of DINKs with decent salaries - it's tough out there to have the basics - home in decent area, healthy groceries, decent healthcare, savings for the kids education & retirement accounts of substance for some imaginary time in the future when the two of you will join other retired couples to the life of easy living. It's all highly unlikely. I wonder how many dyed-in-the-wool optimists are posting here and elsewhere who are themselves in line for a nice piece of inherited wealth from mums & pop, uncle & auntee, and/or gramps & granny. I wonder because of some of the pie-in-the-sky stuff folks say here and elsewhere - do you have the courage of your convictions from some other source than just faith & a decent job(s)? Does it erk anyone else to see how the widening gap between the wealthy comfortable and the average schlub out there is increasing, and how political decisions are being passed into law to further enrich the same. Does anyone see the crocodille tears over the estate tax with either party? Who are the ones with real wealth to protect. Other than some posturing, where are the political challenges for average Jane or Joe? Send them off to protect the interests of the rich, but provide them a safety net? Are the tightening bankruptcy laws really just about the average Joe trying to abuse the system, or is there something more ominous behind some of this legislation?

Mexicans have a tough place in their native land, the monied interests, the corruption, the lack of decent jobs, etc. has been driving them north for a long time. Talk to any Mexican and they understand the disparity between the haves and have nots, and the great middle that doesn't really exist. Will the Mexican exodus from Mexico be sometime in the future followed by a similar exodus of Californians from California? It's already slowly moving in that direction - no? Is most of Cali just destined to become a state of the wealthy and their support network? Just tossing it out there.

I keep hearing the same golden stater statement over and over again, "So, if you didn't buy into neighborhood X with the prop locking down your prop taxes at such & such a time in the past you're s__ out of luck". I'm not talking about living high, I'm talking about living Cali middle class. Doesn't matter if you've got that graduate degree or if you're a couple of DINKs with decent salaries - it's tough out there to have the basics - home in decent area, regular purchase of healthy foods, decent healthcare, savings for the kids education & retirement accounts of substance for some imaginary time in the future when the two of you will join other retired couples to the life of easy living. It's all highly unlikely. I wonder how many dyed-in-the-wool optimists are posting here and elsewhere who are themselves in line for a nice piece of inherited wealth from mums & pop, uncle & auntee, and/or gramps & granny. When I worked in La La land I saw my share of silver spoon people. Hec, there's an entertainment industry and ancillary businesses out there with artifically high paying jobs - not reality for the other vast masses of Californians. I wonder because of some of the pie-in-the-sky stuff folks say - you must have the comfort of your conviction from some other source than just faith & a decent job(s). Does it erk anyone else to see how the widening gap between the wealthy comfortable and the average schlub out there is increasing, and how political decisions are being passed into law to further enrich the same. Does anyone see the crocodille tears over the estate tax with either party? They are the ones with the wealth to protect, so other than some posturing, there's little serious challenges. Are the loss of safety nets ie. bankruptcies, really just about the average ******* trying to abuse the system, or is there something more ominous behind some of this legislation? Mexicans have tough place in their native land, the monied interests, the corruption, the lack of decent jobs, etc. has been driving them north for a long time. Talk to any Mexican and they understand the h-u-g-e disparity between the haves and have nots, and the great middle that doesn't really exist. Will the Mexican exodus from Mexico be postceded by an exodus of Californians from California? It's kinda already moved in that direction - no? Is Cali inching toward a place so sharply defined by the haves and the have nots that social and political turmoil won't boil over again into the streets. Just a thought.

Last edited by Marka; 06-23-2006 at 05:47 PM.. Reason: merged
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