tenants charged for water/sewage/waste disposal (Long Beach: apartments, rental)

[punkynlew]

Originally Posted by katenik

does anyone live in a building in los angeles where the landlord charges tenants for these services? i have been doing some research and have been unable to determine whether they must be provided at the LL's own expense, or if the costs may be passed along to tenants separate from the rents charged. if anyone-- landlord or tenant-- is able to clarify this issue for me, i would appreciate it very much. if you know of any recent legislation or case law pertaining to this, please cite. (i've heard rumors, but my research has yielded no results.)

thank you.

(LARSO not applicable.)

I'm fighting this problem in Georgia. I claim that my landlord and all apartment owners, who do not have a permit to operate a public water system and bill more than 24 fulltime tenants separately for water/sewer, are violating the federal Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) and selling drinking water to the public without a permit. According to the USEPA, the SDWA requires apartment owners using an allocation method of billing, without submetering, to have a permit to operate a public water system (PWS) and comply with the National Primary Drinking Water Regulations (NPDWR). Forty-nine states (not Wyoming, I think) have primacy (jurisdiction to enforce drinking water laws) from the USEPA. The states are not enforcing the federal laws, which supercede state laws. The EPA released a memo/ruling "The Applicability of The Safe Drinking Water Act to Submetered Properties" published in the Federal Register Dec. 23, 2003, which clarified the "sale" (billing sepatately) of drinking water by apartment owners as qualifying them to be designated public water systems. However, henceforth, apartment owners using submetering would be exempted from the requirements of the SDWA to have a permit to operate a PWS or comply with the NPDWR because the EPA is satisfied that submetering results in water conservation. The EPA specifically did not exempt apartment owners using an allocation method because the EPA is not satified that it results in the conservation of water (no price signal to the tenants). The states seem to think they can lump both the submetering and allocation methods together and not require PWS permits from apartment owners. I and my lawyers think they are wrong. The states and their water regulating agencies are freaked out at the idea that so many apartment complexes/buildings would be considered PWS's and severely overload the state agencies' resources. The intent of the EPA's memo/ruling was to encourage the use of submetering. However, the attempt was seriously flawed because of states like Georgia that allow the option of using an allocation method that requires zero investment for the apartment owner. Retro-fitting submetering cost a lot of money to install and operate. No apartment owner will ever invest money to install submetering, when they are allowed to use an arbitrary allocation formula. All but 4 states (DE, MA, NC and MS) allow the use of an allocation method of billing for utilities without submetering. The lawyers have been researching this matter for nearly 6 months and, as of yet, have not found a reason not to take the case (class action against my landlord's 6 properties in Georgia) on a contingency basis. There have been no cases like this one to set a precendent from which to work to help develop a case. Therefore, the lawyers are looking at the case, I presented to them on a gold platter, from the viewpoint of the apartment owner's legal team and trying to poke holes in it. So far, no holes. It's getting close to when the lawyers said they would make a decision whether to represent me or not. If they do, they said they will probably file suit in Georgia in July 2008. Hope this helps. Since a federal act and EPA ruling is involved, the same would apply in any state. There was a case involving a mobile home park vs USEPA, where they lost and on federal appeal as well, and the plaintiff tried to claim to use the aforementioned memo/ruling to back their claim against EPA for not exempting them as well as apartment owners. But, that was about the use of submetering. There were, however, a number of similarities to my case cited by the courts. Later, amigo. Lew

[Las Vegas Mommy]

Im going through this similar situation right now in Las Vegas. I chose to try to change the law here, before our community becomes plagued with 3'rd party billers, seducing the Apt owners into thinking this is a great Idea. I have an assembly women in my district working on a BRD to oppose the practice of this type of billing practice.

Heres, what I wrote:

Does anyone know what Ratio Utility Billing Sytem is and master meters??

RATIO UTILITY BILLING SYSTEM (RUBS)- is a method of billing used for utilities based upon a formula of square footage, number of occupants, and rooms.

MASTER METERS- can be for Electricity, Gas, Water and Sewage
A master meter is One meter used for a whole apartment community.
No indiviual meters, just one big one or a few to provide utilities for the apt community. can be 80 units or even a few thousand.

HOW ARE APT OWNERS BLEEDING TENANTS THROUGH THIS BILLING METHOD????

Lets say you were looking into an apt for rent:

2/2 bath unit- Lush Landscaping, pools, hot tub, saunas, ect
$1100.00 + $25.00 flat rate for water, trash and sewer= $1125.00

2/2 bath unit- Lush landscaping, pools, hot tub, saunas, ect
$1075.00 + $40.00 for water, sewer, and trash based upon a formula of occupany or the RUBS billing method. This is what the leasing agent tells you, "your bill will never exceed this".
$1075.00 + $40.00= $1115.00

you go with at #2 A dollar saved is a dollar earned RIGHT!

Well, the first of the month comes around and you get your first bills
$1075.00 Rent
$80.00 Water
$30.00 Sewer
$5.00 for Trash
$4.25 service fee- this is what the 3'rd party billing company charges
Well, my grand total is $1194.25

WOW..........should have went with apt #1, you would have saved $69.25
Do you see where the dishonesty happens.
In order for the Apartment complexes who use such billing methods to stay competitve, they drop the rental rate a few dollars less than another apt community. What they forget to tell you is that they will get back the money plus some when the first of the month comes around.

When you complain about this practice, some people ask, well was it in your lease and how did you not know.

First, you have to consider this.
When you factor in your own water consumptions from past experience, you dont think BIG MONEY.
What the leasing agents forget to tell you or do not fully understand is:
1. all tenants pay for the leaks
2. all tenants pay for the pools
3. all tenants pay for the lanscaping
4. all tenants pay for vacant units- which tend to have a higher vacany rate, due to price of the unit and utilties.
5. alll tenants pay for every common area
6. all tenants pay more, when other tenants move in additional people and pets that are not on the lease.
7. On top of all that, they all come up with a fomula based upon square footage, number of people ON the LEASE and bedrooms.
So, if you are barely home and its just you living in a 2 bedrooms, you will still see a water bill that does not reflect your consumption. You can get a water bill for $55.00, $20.00 Sewer, $5.00 for trash, 4.25 service fee.
WOULDNT THAT JUST **** YOU OFF!
Oh, the people who have it the hardest are the ones with electricty and GAS..........how will they survive this year!

NOW IF YOU KNEW ALL THIS INFO AND WERE EDUCATED IN UTILITIES, WHAT ON EARTH WOULD YOU BE DOING LIVING IN AN APT!
You would probably be working in the Public Utilities office, and owning your own home with your six figure salary!

However, if you have been a victim of this scam....either you dont care and just the pay the bill because there is not a person to complain to, since its not regulated. Or you stay away from places like this and have learned your lesson the hard way.
Burn me once- SHAME ON YOU
Burn me twice- SHAME ON ME

How about we do away with the whole practice and NOBODY ELSE GET BURNED.

Just to let everyone know........If you dont think this can affect you, you can be wrong. If you live in a apartment and are currently paying a flat rate, they can change it, with 90 days notice. So, the lovely flat rate you might pay right now. Lets say $30.00, includes water, sewer and trash.
You can see that hike all the way up to $120.00 a month if not more.

So, the next time you see a beautiful apt community and all the lovely landscape. Stop and ask yourself, will I be paying for this through my utilities. Shouldnt the cost of such beauty, be included in your rent.

The next time you rent an apt and they are not on a flat rate or using individual meters, meaning you pay the utility company youself.
Get it in writing on how much you utility fees will be. If they dont, turn around and take your business elsewhere. There are plenty of other apt communites that are still using flat rates and promoting honest and transparency.

[punkynlew]

Las Vegas MOMMY: You understand far more about the inequities of RUBS than most other apartment tenants. We need all the tenants we can get to report these problems to their state and federal (EPA, Ron Bergman, Office of Drinking Water) environmental drinking water offices and consumer protection offices. My complaint against my Georgia landlord (owns/operates properties in 14 states) is now under consideration by EPA's Washington DC office. They are supposed to be considering the problem of states nation-wide not requiring landlords selling drinking water to the public without a permit to operate a Public Water System as required by law promulgated in the U.S. Safe Drinking Water Act. Currently, only 4 states do not allow the use of RUBS (MA, DE, NC and MS.

I also recently complained to Georgia Dept. of Agriculture, Weights and Measures Division, Fuels and Measures, that apartment owners are improperly using an arbitrary and inaccurate allocation formula to bill tenants for water, sewer and trash. I said we are paying for an inaccurately measured liquid commodity. I made a comparison of a driver getting gas from a gas station and paying according to the number of customers that month and the total gallons dispensed.

Someone needs to get a blog going to organize and inform tenants in large numbers. Later, amiga.

[SOON2BNSURPRISE]

Why wouldn't an owner of a property have an option to either pay it, pass it on in higher rent, or have the individual tenants pay it thru a service? In California and other areas companies such as California Utility Billing service, ISTA, and other services are used all the time to bill the tenets of apartments all the time. When a tenent rents a unit the manager or agent for the owner informs them of what they will be paying. At that time if you have a problem with it, don't sign the lease or rental agrement. Move to a property that doesn't charge you for basic services, or hides the charges in your rent. Nothing illegal about this.

[punkynlew]

The short answer is: 1) The U.S. Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) says anyone who sells (EPA says that billing tenants separately is selling) drinking water to the public (25 or more full time residents) is operating a Public Water System (PWS) and is required to have a permit to operate a PWS and comply with the National Primary Drinking Water Regulations (NPDWR) including water quality testing and providing Consumer Confidence Reports (CCRs) to end users. Federal law supercedes state law. Four states don't allow the use of Ratio Utility Billing Systems (RUBS). The others are ignoring the SDWA and EPA has not been providing proper oversight. EPA is now considering the possibility of changing that and issuing new stricter guidance to states - or not. The matter is open to a court judgement and that may be coming too. 2) Allocation formulas, including flat rate fees, are arbitrary and do not accurately measure how much water/sewer each unit uses. 3) Common area water/sewer usage should only be recovered through tenant's rent. Tenants have no control over common area water usage. 4) There is no price signal to the tenant nor the owner to provide incentive to conserve. 5) I live in an area under severe emergency drought conditions and conservation matters. Conservation has a direct impact on water quality and quantity. 6) At no time does my landlord fully disclose the precise formula used to bill tenants for water/sewer. Disclosure is vague at best and deceptive at worst. Obfuscation is the order of the day, when it comes to allocation billing. My lawyer did finally, get the formula and is waiting for full disclosure of all billing details. The cost to me was eviction. In Georgia, the landlord needs no reason to evict. There is no law protecting tenants from retaliatory eviction.

A landlord that misrepresents conditions/terms/legality of a lease contract is not protected just because a tenant signed the contract. Illegal terms and conditions are not enforceable and may be considered fraud. And, threatening late fees for not paying illegal fees may be considered extortion. Utility billing services may be considered parties, along with landlords, in a conspiracy to commit fraud. Interstate class action lawsuits are a distinct possibility.

I am happily living in a new environment, where I have no problems with RUBS billing. However, I have not given up on pursuing this matter to its just conclusion.

Submetering is the best sollution to the problem. Tenants have no qualms about paying for what is accurately measured indicating what they use in their apartments. There are meters using wireless radio signals.

As long as states and federal agencies are influenced by big business and their lobbyists, we will have such problems that are very business friendly and ignore the little guys. Most folks, judging by the recent election, understand how they have been screwed over by big business, conservative politicians, government, deregulation and lack of oversight. My landlord has 123,000 units on 80 properties in 14 states. I call that big business. Lew

[SOON2BNSURPRISE]

Could you provide a link to the information please.

[Las Vegas Mommy]

the only problem with that issue is this:
1. the utility addendums do not mention the following, nor do the leasing agents tell you these factors when reading over the addendum, which makes up these overblown fees.
1. tenants pay for vacant units
2. tenants pay for all leaks that go undetected and overlooked
3. tenants pay for common areas, such as landscaping, pools, spas, saunas, clubhouses, ect
4. its not disclosed on how much the owner pays 1%, 5% 10%, if any at all. Those bills are kept confidential and tenants are not allowed access to them.
5. tenants pay for other tenants family members & friends that they move in without managements permission.
So, unless you have experienced this billing method at another apt community, you have no idea the other factors that make up these excessive utility bills.
I think its misleading, and very unethical!
I AGREE, they should hide those charges in the rent....then a potential renter can make a reasonable decision based upon the price they were quoted and then move on if they believe
that those prices are unreasonable.
Honestly, wouldnt just be easier that way! No need for a third party biller, you wouldnt have tenants lining up at the office screaming that they have been scammed. You wouldnt have people flying out of these units at the end of their lease. (TENDS to **** alot of People off)
Nobody would even question the rental rate if they included it into the rent.
I honestly think its just another way to scam people.....they drop the prices a few bucks from the existing competitors and then they lure you in with the basic utility addendum that doesnt mention any of the factors I listed above.......NOW do you really think thats fair??

[longsr]

YES - check out my post re charging rent stabilized tenats for.....


[SIZE=3]Question regarding LA Rent Stabilization. In the past 3 years some rent stabilized buildings have began charging new tenants a monthly fee for water, sewage and in some cases garbage. This fee is based on a calculation of units, number of occupants and or square footage and is administered by a third party vendor. Tenants in the buildings prior to the implementation of this new fee are not charged. Is this legal? It seems like a run around rent stabilization.[/SIZE]

[ITChick]

Originally Posted by katenik

i'm getting the sense that these separate charges are uncommon, and at the very least, questionable. it's really an issue of apportionment, as i don't understand how a tenant determines if he is being billed his fair share. take the landlord's word for it?

anyhow, thanks for the replies.

Katenik, are you renting a Condo owned unit? In that case, I could see where the Landlord might have separate billing for utilities like trash disposal, etc. Ask how the billing is being determined, and maybe they can show you the bills and how it's calculated.

I've lived in Apartments where heat/gas is extra (at the renter's expense) and that can add up if you have a 50 year old furnace and water heater that were never maintained! I'll never do that type of rental again!

[BennyPhoenix]

Originally Posted by ITChick

Katenik, are you renting a Condo owned unit? In that case, I could see where the Landlord might have separate billing for utilities like trash disposal, etc. Ask how the billing is being determined, and maybe they can show you the bills and how it's calculated.

I've lived in Apartments where heat/gas is extra (at the renter's expense) and that can add up if you have a 50 year old furnace and water heater that were never maintained! I'll never do that type of rental again!

In the City of LA condos are not effected by all the rent stabilization laws of LA. You can be charged for all utilities and trash pickup, but your lease needs to state so.