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Old 12-23-2011, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,208 posts, read 22,808,354 times
Reputation: 6183

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtkomori View Post
Hi, I've been trying to follow what is going on with the California HSR plan and recently received an article from metro magazine, to which I subscribe. According to what it says, the HSR plan looks very difficult to carry out as it will take twice the amount of money and time than originally anticipated. What's makes the problem worse is that nearly 60% of the people polled said that they would rather have the HSR plan reconsidered. Why are the people of California against this plan? Is it just because they can't afford such an expensive project? I don't get the chance to hear opinions from people living in California so am looking forward to your opinion.The link to the article:
BRT sees success, while rail suffers assault - Transit Dispatches - METRO Magazine (http://www.metro-magazine.com/Blog/Transit-Dispatches/Story/2011/12/BRT-sees-success-while-rail-suffers-assault.aspx?ref=TransitDispatches - broken link) click on "HSR is dead in America..."
As evidenced by some of the responses, California is very much car culture. The average Californian would rather drive somewhere then take a train, regardless of their political leanings. It should also be pointed out that public transportation in California is generally seen as something that poor people ride, not well-respected members of society (read: those who can afford an automobile).

Even if this HSR was built, even if it was 100% privately funded, ridership would be too low for it to even break-even. As nice as it sounds, it would be deemed a failure. Not because it would lack in convenience, but because it would lack in necessity; nobody will see the point in riding it.

Another thing to keep in mind is the divide in the State. Most residents of Southern California would rather stay in So Cal, as most residents of Northern California would rather stay there. HSR lines to destinations in SoCal would get more use as long as they stayed within the region...although a HSR from LA to LV would get heavy usage, more than likely.

The Northeast is the only region in the U.S. that not only uses rail travel as a viable mode of transportation, but it is the only region in the U.S. that wholly accepts rail travel. Riding a subway, taking an inter-city train, what-ever is not looked down upon in the Northeast. Nor is it considered something that only "poor" people do.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,208 posts, read 22,808,354 times
Reputation: 6183
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
The HSR will never be a part of the California landscape for a couple of reasons, and the major reason can be found in the history of the rail system known as the red cars.
They traveled to Long Beach, and plans were in the works to extend the system into Pasadena.
Well, One company,odly enough, a car manufacturer,(General Motors) felt Los Angeles needed a freeway system instead of a rail system, so they had a huge market for their cars, and poured big bucks, and political influence to construct the first freeway in the state.(Arroyo Seco Parkway).
You can bet the farm, many auto manufactures were in on the meetings when the HSR plans were being discussed.
No one could be so dense as to think the auto manufacturing companies would just stand by , and allow their sales to disappear because the population would switch to rail.
Californians will never be weaned away from their cars, and HSR will go the way of the red cars.
Local rail service like the gold line and metro link will stay around, and be successful because they fill a need for daily commute too and from work, but a long distance rail system isn't a strong enough magnet to lure drivers from their current means of transportation.
Bob.
I don't doubt one second that the automobile industry is playing their hand in trying to keep an HSR from happening, but I always thought it was Goodyear that really put the muscle down on rail travel in SoCal and heavily supported highways and automobile travel?
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
6,195 posts, read 8,017,170 times
Reputation: 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
I don't doubt one second that the automobile industry is playing their hand in trying to keep an HSR from happening, but I always thought it was Goodyear that really put the muscle down on rail travel in SoCal and heavily supported highways and automobile travel?
Perhaps presently, but back when the Arroyo Seco Parkway was in the planning stage, GM was the driving force behind it's creation.
Bob.
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:01 PM
 
12,825 posts, read 20,846,436 times
Reputation: 10936
Lots of conspiracy theories and value judgments about Californians here. I think many Easterners (and wanna be Western US rail promoters) fail to appreciate is the vastness involved here and the general lack of density between the major conurbations. Whereas in BOS-WASH it really is a nearly continuous high density area, here, we have wide open spaces in between. Check out the Buena Vista lake bed that I-5 goes through. Heck, even areas on I-5 not all that far out of the Bay Area look like they might as well be in the middle of Wyoming or the Llano Estacado of New Mexico. For inter urban rail to succeed there needs to be more than 2 or 3 big metro areas involved. You need a general high density along the entire route. That is why it works in Europe, Japan and BOS-WASH.

Here, a trip like DC - Princeton (or even Newark DE - Princeton) just does not exist. The equivalent here would be a dusty migrant worker town to an exurb of Bakersfield. That element of demand is missing here. It is what it is.
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:25 PM
 
1,629 posts, read 3,456,980 times
Reputation: 1772
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtkomori View Post
Hi, I've been trying to follow what is going on with the California HSR plan and recently received an article from metro magazine, to which I subscribe. According to what it says, the HSR plan looks very difficult to carry out as it will take twice the amount of money and time than originally anticipated. What's makes the problem worse is that nearly 60% of the people polled said that they would rather have the HSR plan reconsidered. Why are the people of California against this plan? Is it just because they can't afford such an expensive project? I don't get the chance to hear opinions from people living in California so am looking forward to your opinion.The link to the article:
BRT sees success, while rail suffers assault - Transit Dispatches - METRO Magazine (http://www.metro-magazine.com/Blog/Transit-Dispatches/Story/2011/12/BRT-sees-success-while-rail-suffers-assault.aspx?ref=TransitDispatches - broken link) click on "HSR is dead in America..."

Gosh Darn it!!!! The State is debt ridden and you think Californians should fund a Giant new bureaucracy and boondoggle?

Please some common sense. YOU just typed " According to what it says, the HSR plan looks very difficult to carry out as it will take twice the amount of money and time than originally anticipated."

And, it has been demonstrated there is no market to make the behemoth fiscally responsible!!!

Why would Californians want to throw more money down the political sewer pipe????????

*Walks away exasperated*
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Old 12-23-2011, 05:35 PM
 
11,715 posts, read 36,692,295 times
Reputation: 7522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Trails View Post
Why would Californians want to throw more money down the political sewer pipe????????

*Walks away exasperated*
Because it makes anti-car, enviro-nazi, liberals feel good about "making a difference".
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,208 posts, read 22,808,354 times
Reputation: 6183
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
Lots of conspiracy theories and value judgments about Californians here.
Well, as far as I am concerned, I am born and raised Californian. Even though I grew up in Sacramento, the majority of my family lives between LA and Riverside/Inland Empire. I visit California once or twice a year for anywhere between one and four weeks at a time. My entire family still lives [t]here, as well as most of my childhood friends.

My criticisms are from the eye of a Californian who has spent time in the Midwest and Northeast.

Yes, the Bos-Wash corridor is densely populated, and can be described as a continuous city if you will, but I don't think that is why East Coasters like rail travel. It makes more sense out there, but I just honestly think it is a cultural difference. East Coasters, in particular those from the Northeast, just accept different aspects of daily living differently. Doesn't make them right or Californians wrong, it's just how it is. Owning a car in the Northeast is more of a chore than a "freedom".

Speaking of which, I will be driving from Sacto down to Riverside tomorrow
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Old 12-24-2011, 01:49 AM
 
2,039 posts, read 4,560,999 times
Reputation: 1020
Truly poor people can't even afford the Amtrak in the Northeast Corridor, let alone the high-speed Acela train (which isn't even truly high-speed). Poor folk out there would probably need to resort to the MegaBus, BoltBus (a Greyhound brand), Greyhound bus, Peter Pan bus or one of the several rather questionable Chinatown bus services such as Fung Wah.

Despite the high cost, the rail system in the Northeast Corridor is by far the most efficient one in the USA and it is needed in that truly dense region (almost all of its connected cities have decent light rail & commuter rail systems as well). I take the Amtrak out of Chicago fairly often & it is a JOKE in comparison to the Northeast trains although Chicago was once a much grander railroad hub. It is still probably #4 in the country in terms of overall commuter & railroad passenger railroad traffic passing through (after Philadelphia #3, Washington D.C. #2 & New York Penn Station #1 by a landslide).

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
As evidenced by some of the responses, California is very much car culture. The average Californian would rather drive somewhere then take a train, regardless of their political leanings. It should also be pointed out that public transportation in California is generally seen as something that poor people ride, not well-respected members of society (read: those who can afford an automobile).

Even if this HSR was built, even if it was 100% privately funded, ridership would be too low for it to even break-even. As nice as it sounds, it would be deemed a failure. Not because it would lack in convenience, but because it would lack in necessity; nobody will see the point in riding it.

Another thing to keep in mind is the divide in the State. Most residents of Southern California would rather stay in So Cal, as most residents of Northern California would rather stay there. HSR lines to destinations in SoCal would get more use as long as they stayed within the region...although a HSR from LA to LV would get heavy usage, more than likely.

The Northeast is the only region in the U.S. that not only uses rail travel as a viable mode of transportation, but it is the only region in the U.S. that wholly accepts rail travel. Riding a subway, taking an inter-city train, what-ever is not looked down upon in the Northeast. Nor is it considered something that only "poor" people do.
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Old 12-24-2011, 04:27 AM
 
Location: Tijuana Exurbs
4,122 posts, read 10,726,714 times
Reputation: 5028
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
And this is different from a 4 lane autobahn how? Nothing is perfect. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
I won't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I will let the barely acceptable be the enemy of the good. The I-5 between Bakersfield and Stockton is only barely acceptable. The amount of traffic on this highway that is located in the middle of nowhere is intense. If not HSR, then the I-5 needs to be doubled in capacity. A driver really feels that extra hour or 90 minutes at the end of an 8, or 9, or 12 hour trip.
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Old 12-25-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
17,681 posts, read 17,749,595 times
Reputation: 14313
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdumbgod View Post
The funding priorities have been dominated by automobile-related concerns for many decades.

Uh............yeah, that's because people prefer to drive.....much more convenient for the most part.

If you make a trip and have to make....oh say 2 or three stops......if you are on the choo-choo, well, you would be commuting all day.
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