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Old 12-06-2007, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,345 posts, read 84,833,184 times
Reputation: 17581

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My comments in blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edelweiss View Post
People suffer for reasons you and I don't understand, but their suffering is eased by those around them. It is God who works through each of us to help ease this suffering.

That's like justifying my assault on someone by saying it's good someone will help out the person that got assaulted.


He has given us free will, the chance to choose right and wrong. Many people choose wrong, but many more, I believe, choose right. Of course, God could FORCE us to do good, but then where is our freedom??

Why can't we be good and free?

Perhaps in the "Book of Charles" it says that man created God, but thank goodness this is not the Book that over 2 billion Christians worldwide are trying to live by.


Brainwashed, delusional theists.

Having an intelligent discussion with someone who is brainwashed is like trying to discuss math with someone who "believes" 2+2=5. "The bible says it, I believe it, that settles it."

With out religion and belief in god, the world would be a much better place.

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Old 12-06-2007, 08:20 AM
 
Location: FULCI LIVES!!!(but not in Indiana)
413 posts, read 1,725,232 times
Reputation: 200
God may be real. Satan may also be real. You mention Satan in school you will get punished to the same extent (or more) than if you say Jesus or God. I think that's wrong too. I am Agnostic and I believe people should have a right to worship any diety they find comfort in. USA may have been founded by Christians, but it was also founded with the prospect of freedom to choose your religion, and the right to fair and equal treatment despite your personal beliefs/disbeliefs. To blame this right of choice for our "demoralization" is very one sided. Corporate America holds the throne of demoralization. People being selfish and narrow minded adds to it also. I think the schools are just trying to keep EDUCATION as the main focus as religion (as we all know) causes alot of tension and rivalry.

I don't think our country is doing bad at all. Sure, we could use alot of re-structuring in the medical and educational areas, but overall we are very lucky to live in a country where tanks and military personell are not in our front yards and we're not forced to our knees for a superior being we don't believe in. (yet). If 2 Billion people agreed that 2+2=5 would that make it right? Sounds dumb, but it's really that simple. I'm with Charles.
PS- Believing in something doesn't make you a "good" person. Acts of kindness and trying to do the right thing make you a good person. I volunteer alot for various things and I get alot of crap for not participating in the prayer services etc. that go on at these events. I'd rather use that time to help someone get some food or clothes.
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,345 posts, read 84,833,184 times
Reputation: 17581
Before the mods nail us, we should either get back on track or move this over to a different forum. I'd be glad to keep it going, but it should be elsewhere not on an LA forum.
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Old 12-06-2007, 09:22 AM
 
Location: La Mirada, CA
236 posts, read 1,061,763 times
Reputation: 156
Since you two have already brainwashed yourselves that your ways are higher than the Almighty, then I'd say I'm the one who can't have an intelligent conversation with you. This conversation is a matter of faith, not 2+2=5. That's just it. Scientific minds like yours are certainly an asset to this world, but your insistance on working with strictly the facts makes it nearly impossible to openly talk about something not of this world.

We can be good and free, Charles, since God had every intention of us living our lives as good people. He created us in His image and likeness which makes us inherently good, Jakehorror (whether you believe in Him or not). Our suffering comes not from God but from our choosing to turn away from him, from choosing to turn our backs on that which is Good.

I am not the one who is delusional.
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Old 12-06-2007, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Cranford New Jersey
52 posts, read 138,653 times
Reputation: 17
The problem is we all need to respect one anothers religion and beliefs. To each his own. There is to much disrespect in the world. I't alll begins in the middle east where all the hate has evolved. Enough of this stuff if you dont believe in my god you should be dead.
Respect for everyone bottem line. Our poor children are the ones to suffer from leaders ignorant decisions. Peace on Earth for All.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:41 AM
 
Location: FULCI LIVES!!!(but not in Indiana)
413 posts, read 1,725,232 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by edelweiss View Post
Since you two have already brainwashed yourselves that your ways are higher than the Almighty, then I'd say I'm the one who can't have an intelligent conversation with you. This conversation is a matter of faith, not 2+2=5. That's just it. Scientific minds like yours are certainly an asset to this world, but your insistance on working with strictly the facts makes it nearly impossible to openly talk about something not of this world.

We can be good and free, Charles, since God had every intention of us living our lives as good people. He created us in His image and likeness which makes us inherently good, Jakehorror (whether you believe in Him or not). Our suffering comes not from God but from our choosing to turn away from him, from choosing to turn our backs on that which is Good.

I am not the one who is delusional.
Of course I have to disagree. You automatically assume that YOUR "maker" is also in charge of MY existence. In your mind I'm sure that's true because that's what you choose to believe, however, nobody really knows the truth. You think it's in a book, or in ancient texts, but really you don't know. It is the unknown and that's what makes it so arguable. Was Hitler made to God's likeness? Just curious. Whoah, might get banned for that one, but it did come to mind.
I don't think your delusional at all, I never said that and I apologize if it was implied. I don't choose to "turn away from God" because I never faced this God that you speak of. If I was in fact in front of him/her I don't remember. I don't think I am higher than any supreme being either, I'd just be a little more swayable if this being would show it's face. Your book says it will indeed show it's face during the rapture and maybe your right, maybe I will burn, but either way it's not your (or any human beings) place to imply or judge another persons fate. As I said before, I do alot of good for people when I can. I try to help the less fortunate to the best of my ability. I try to treat people equally but I'm only human. If I am sent to a everlasting lake of fire for doing my best than so be it.
Yeah, this thread will probably self destruct if the heat don't die down. I've said my peace. I'm done with this one. Good luck and take care.
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Old 12-06-2007, 02:45 PM
 
Location: La Mirada, CA
236 posts, read 1,061,763 times
Reputation: 156
Yes, I believe everyone, including the scum of the earth Adolf Hitler was made in God's likeness and is therefore has value and worth. Hitler chose to live a sinful life, but not because God made him that way. Rather because God gave him the free will he has given all of us.

You say that "my" God has never shown His face... what do you think the big deal is about CHRISTmas??? It's all about how God came into this world as a human (a defenseless baby, I might add) to teach us how He wants us to live. What we celebrate a Christmas is truly a mystery; that God in His majestic divinity would humble Himself to share in our humanity. I know it's not what you might believe, but again, there might just be something to this whole "Jesus" thing if about 30% of the entire world is christian. Oh yeah, it's just a massive brainwashing, right?

Merry CHRISTmas!!!
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles-213.323.310.818/San Diego-619.858.760
705 posts, read 3,085,880 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
My comments in orange. If God does not exist then what is pain and suffering?

This question makes no sense.

Is pain and suffering made up of matter?

Irrelevant.

why do we feel pain, happiness, sadness, or any other type of emotion if something without life created man?

Irrelevant.

Again, God permits man to do whatever it wants and has given us the choice to believe in Him or not.

Probably an invalid statement.
I ask these questions because it appears you dont believe in God, and if you dont then you must have some explenation of what pain and suffering really are. All those questions are not irrelevant, but maybe just an excuse not to answer them. I have my ideas and I would really like to hear yours. Again, city-data is certainly the most appropriate place to discuss religion so I leave it at that.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:30 AM
 
Location: FULCI LIVES!!!(but not in Indiana)
413 posts, read 1,725,232 times
Reputation: 200
One more thing and I promise to keep my un-popular disbeliefs to myself. You say God came into this world as a human? Jesus Christ did, but God (in the Christian belief system) is a superior being which has no creator, God has no creator if he is the alpha and omega. It always strikes me as odd when Christians refer to Jesus Christ as God. Jesus was supposedly the son of God, not God himself. Jesus supposedy took orders from God. None of it makes any sense to me, but it don't have to, obviously when one has a strict set of beliefs they choose not to see other possibilities. I admit that the whole thing may be true, but I also admit that I am only human and as a human NONE OF US actually know the truth. Not even the good ol' Christians. Peace and Merry X-Mas!
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:49 AM
 
Location: La Mirada, CA
236 posts, read 1,061,763 times
Reputation: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakehorror View Post
You say God came into this world as a human? Jesus Christ did, but God (in the Christian belief system) is a superior being which has no creator, God has no creator if he is the alpha and omega. It always strikes me as odd when Christians refer to Jesus Christ as God. Jesus was supposedly the son of God, not God himself. Jesus supposedy took orders from God.
You are refering to the mystery of the Holy Trinity. As I Catholic, I will explain it like this: We belive that Jesus is one with the Father. From the begining of time, God existed. He simply is. You've maybe heard the word "Yahweh?" This is how the ancient Jews refered to God (although they held even God's name in such high esteem, that they often felt unworthy to even pronounce the name). It translates simply to "I am" or "I am the One who is." So, yes, you are correct in assuming that God has no creator.

As I said, we believe that God exists in the form of 3 persons. One God in three persons. By name, they are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This is why Christians make the sign of the cross when we pray; we are annointing ourselves in the name of the Trinity. About 2000 years ago, God chose to reveal Himself to the world in the person of Jesus, thus the celebration of Christmas. Yes, Jesus is the Son of God, but he is also one with God.

Here is a portion of the Nicene Creed, which Catholics recite every time we go to Mass: "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man." It goes on and on, but this part answers your question. It's kind of like three candles bundled together, wicks intertwined and burning in one flame. We believe God exists in three unique persons but still one God. It is the mystery of the Holy Trinity - impossible to understand completely with our simple minds. Only with faith can this be embraced. So anyway, this is why we believe that Jesus is divine. He is Son of God, but equally he is God Himself.
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