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Old 06-04-2018, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
25,306 posts, read 16,514,397 times
Reputation: 12191

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They are still making due , but I'm saying there are better options out there for lower income people than living in L.A . Yes it would be nice if everyone live and work a short walk or commute to their job but the economics don't work. That's a fantasy the politicians promise.


People are still willing to commute far and stack up in apartments in big cities across the nation and the world.

You see the same in other high cost areas too. I haven't heard about restaurants having trouble finding dishwashers though. Shouldn't we deal with that issue when/if it ever happens?

Wages go up when the job applications stop coming in.


Gentrification is good if you can ride the wave up. Like the people that bought in SF or L.A when it was cheaper. Back then regular folks buy a place. I remember some years ago taking an Uber there and the driver mentioned how he was lucky how he bought years back then since prices are so much higher. They've probably gone up a ton even since then..that was 2014.



We should be encouraging more business and development in the more affordable parts of the state like Central California. Might happen eventually but it seems better to seek our more affordable cities.

Some interesting things happening in many cities in the U.S, lot's of these rust belt cities are investing a lot in their downtown areas and you have gentrification ...but the prices are still very affordable.



Cities like Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati even Detroit now.

These were places that had been written off not too long ago..now a lot of the big tech companies have opened offices and research labs there.

I don't think many people are really aware of this. It's kind of how things were happening in China over the years and then all of a sudden many people were like "What happened? How did the Chinese economy grow so much overnight?"


That is an issue for teachers. If they are making $60-70k with rents in SF it's going to be a struggle..if it's two teachers making $60k-70k each living together they can prob pay rent ..but buying a place at 1.6 million is still going to be out of the question .

Lot's of churn with young teachers it seems as they try teaching then get burned out.

Last edited by jm1982; 06-04-2018 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 06-04-2018, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Riverside Ca
20,262 posts, read 22,509,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Of course it is, when rent increases at 10% a year and wages increase at most 2% a year there will be an ever increasing number of people who can't afford to remain in that area. Their options are to either become homeless or to leave the area. If too many leave the area then service and food industries will not be able to fill jobs, at least not at a rate that will allow them to remain profitable. For businesses to profit there can only be a nominal wage premium in high cost of living areas which leaves the lower wage worker with far less income than they would in other areas.

That leaves you with a few options. I oppose rent control because many people who could afford a more expensive apartment remain in the rent controlled property for decades which locks lower income tenants out of the opportunity to rent those properties. It might help to restrict AirBnB which is taking a lot of rentals off the market for long term renters and Cities should relax building codes to increase the amount of available housing. And maybe for a shorter term solution we could subsidize housing for lower income workers who are employed in the area. Denver is already subsidizing rents for lower income workers.

Or we could just get used to not having babysitters, janitors, teachers, retail sales and restaurant personnel.

Here's an excellent analysis of the situation, let me know what you think about it. http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sho...oagjan2015.pdf

You still don’t get how economics work. You obviously have no idea how supply, demand, macro and micro economics work.

You’re not going to have a mass exodus of labor. First of all it’s not going to happen because unless there is some insane demand for thousands of people in a diffferent area you simply do not move labor around like that. It’s not chess.
And all that’s gonna happen is the labor pool will grow in another area giving businesses a chance to lower wages because of the larger labor pool. What? Did you think you can just move a few hundred thousand or million people areoud and nothing is gonna happen?

You’re trying to solve a problem for one section of the population. So your answer is rent control or government takes over and supplies rentals. That’s not how economies work.
Most people who are emotionally charged aboit renting are speaking from a emotional point of view.

Ultimately renting is no different than buying food gas or any other type of consumables or goods and services. The problem is that most people are at the point where they can’t afford it. That’s not the markets fault.
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Old 06-04-2018, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
33,845 posts, read 15,553,673 times
Reputation: 24452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrician4you View Post
You still don’t get how economics work. You obviously have no idea how supply, demand, macro and micro economics work.

You’re not going to have a mass exodus of labor. First of all it’s not going to happen because unless there is some insane demand for thousands of people in a diffferent area you simply do not move labor around like that. It’s not chess.
And all that’s gonna happen is the labor pool will grow in another area giving businesses a chance to lower wages because of the larger labor pool. What? Did you think you can just move a few hundred thousand or million people areoud and nothing is gonna happen?

You’re trying to solve a problem for one section of the population. So your answer is rent control or government takes over and supplies rentals. That’s not how economies work.
Most people who are emotionally charged aboit renting are speaking from a emotional point of view.

Ultimately renting is no different than buying food gas or any other type of consumables or goods and services. The problem is that most people are at the point where they can’t afford it. That’s not the markets fault.
No, my answer is not rent control, if that's all you got out of what I said, go read my post again. And I am talking about real life economics and the fact is that for lower wage workers the pay can only increase nominally in high cost of living areas, after which the business can no longer be profitable, but if wages go up 2% a year while rents go up 10% then you reach a breaking point and people will ultimately have to leave the area and find jobs elsewhere. If that happens in large enough numbers then something has to give. I don't think rent control is a good idea for a number of reasons but it would slow the increase in rent. Rent subsidies to people who work in the City would also help and changing building codes and regulations would probably have the biggest impact. I posted a link to an economic study of this dilemma I'm guessing you didn't read it

High housing costs are driving out lower-income Californians, reports say - The San Diego Union-Tribune

https://calmatters.org/articles/hous...gh-california/

California companies struggle to hire top talent amid housing crisis - Business Insider
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Old 06-04-2018, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
25,306 posts, read 16,514,397 times
Reputation: 12191
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
No, my answer is not rent control, if that's all you got out of what I said, go read my post again. And I am talking about real life economics and the fact is that for lower wage workers the pay can only increase nominally in high cost of living areas, after which the business can no longer be profitable, but if wages go up 2% a year while rents go up 10% then you reach a breaking point and people will ultimately have to leave the area and find jobs elsewhere. If that happens in large enough numbers then something has to give. I don't think rent control is a good idea for a number of reasons but it would slow the increase in rent. Rent subsidies to people who work in the City would also help and changing building codes and regulations would probably have the biggest impact. I posted a link to an economic study of this dilemma I'm guessing you didn't read it

High housing costs are driving out lower-income Californians, reports say - The San Diego Union-Tribune

https://calmatters.org/articles/hous...gh-california/

California companies struggle to hire top talent amid housing crisis - Business Insider
But market rents in L.A have been going up each year . Yet low wage workers still stay . Wouldn’t a bunch of them have left already according to this theory ?
Rent is the main / most important expense low wage workers have to pay .
They’ll cut out other stuff before they stop paying the rent . Or they start working overtime or get another job.
Maybe they start driving for Uber , etc to make up the difference .

The price one pays by choosing to live in a high cost of living area .
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Old 06-04-2018, 05:24 PM
 
18,182 posts, read 11,724,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
But market rents in L.A have been going up each year . Yet low wage workers still stay . Wouldn’t a bunch of them have left already according to this theory ?
Rent is the main / most important expense low wage workers have to pay .
They’ll cut out other stuff before they stop paying the rent . Or they start working overtime or get another job.
Maybe they start driving for Uber , etc to make up the difference .

The price one pays by choosing to live in a high cost of living area .
As they say in Real-estate: Location, location, location. If you want to live bad enough in these areas, you will do what you have to. If you don't want to have a very restrictive life to live there, you will leave. Choice.
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Old 06-04-2018, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
33,845 posts, read 15,553,673 times
Reputation: 24452
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
But market rents in L.A have been going up each year . Yet low wage workers still stay . Wouldn’t a bunch of them have left already according to this theory ?
Rent is the main / most important expense low wage workers have to pay .
They’ll cut out other stuff before they stop paying the rent . Or they start working overtime or get another job.
Maybe they start driving for Uber , etc to make up the difference .

The price one pays by choosing to live in a high cost of living area .
/sigh They are leaving, employers are having a hard time finding employees. You can only "cut so much other stuff" in order to continue paying 60 or 70% of your salary in rent and employers can only raise wages so much before they are no longer profitable. It's a complex problem, I don't have any great solutions but I think it's something that people should be talking about sooner rather than later. Maybe if LA had started discussing homelessness a decade ago they wouldn't be in the mess they are in today. And I'm not singling out LA, San Francisco has been every bit as negligent in ignoring problems like this until they are overwhelming. I

I'm just wondering how long before they won't be able to find teachers willing to work in San Francisco and what they will do about that? A teacher in San Francisco with a bachelors degree and 5 years experience earns $58,159 The average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in the City in January 2018 was $3,253 The salary for a teacher with the same qualifications is $49195, the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Vacaville is $1578 Vacaville is 54 miles from San Francisco plenty close for a Vacaville resident to enjoy the City on weekends.
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Old 06-04-2018, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
25,306 posts, read 16,514,397 times
Reputation: 12191
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
/sigh They are leaving, employers are having a hard time finding employees. You can only "cut so much other stuff" in order to continue paying 60 or 70% of your salary in rent and employers can only raise wages so much before they are no longer profitable. It's a complex problem, I don't have any great solutions but I think it's something that people should be talking about sooner rather than later. Maybe if LA had started discussing homelessness a decade ago they wouldn't be in the mess they are in today. And I'm not singling out LA, San Francisco has been every bit as negligent in ignoring problems like this until they are overwhelming. I

I'm just wondering how long before they won't be able to find teachers willing to work in San Francisco and what they will do about that? A teacher in San Francisco with a bachelors degree and 5 years experience earns $58,159 The average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in the City in January 2018 was $3,253 The salary for a teacher with the same qualifications is $49195, the average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Vacaville is $1578 Vacaville is 54 miles from San Francisco plenty close for a Vacaville resident to enjoy the City on weekends.
CA encouraged more homeless by allowing tents to pop up and block sidewalks and things like that. We also don’t really have any data on the homeless so many are “undocumented” in a way just like illegal aliens .
I think there’s a good percentage of the homeless that are not native to L.A or even CA . And there are illegal alien homeless but the media doesn’t mention it much because it doesn’t go with their agenda of illegal aliens being hard workers working 100 hours a week .
Of course homeless is a different issue .

But if the middle class are being forced to leave then why must the homeless be housed right in city of L.A too?

The high cost of living is why it seems almost every other car is an Uber car . Most aren’t doing Uber full time but many are doing it nights and weekends to make ends meet . So in a way the high cost of living in CA is great for Uber , plenty of people willing to use their car and gas to drive people around . You usually just have to wait a few minutes or so for an Uber in L.A since they are all over now .

You hear a lot more about “side hustles “ now . Uber , selling on eBay or Amazon , YouTube videos etc . Internet has allowed people to earn income outside of a regular job more so than in the past and it doesn’t require much if anything to start .
Most low income people have a car so they do uber , they have access to Internet they can do the other stuff too .
It’s not just low income people doing this stuff either though and it’s a diverse group of people too . A high number of minorities in the gig economy .

So this is the new economy in a way and what is required for people if they want to live in these high cost areas . I’ve heard it called the “sunshine tax “ .
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Old 06-04-2018, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
33,845 posts, read 15,553,673 times
Reputation: 24452
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post

But if the middle class are being forced to leave then why must the homeless be housed right in city of L.A too?
I never said that either have to leave, did I? You either find some kind of shelter for the homeless to sleep in or they will be allowed by the courts to sleep on the street, which do you prefer? There is no requirement that we do anything to enable the middle class to stay in high cost urban areas, but it's worth talking about and maybe thinking of solutions because the option is that the working class who keep the city running will not be able to afford to stay in these areas if rents keep going up.

People are not going to work 40 + hours and then deliver pizzas or drive for Uber all night in order to have the privilege of living in LA or San Francisco, would you? Working people stay in an area when they believe that there is a chance that they will prosper, when that disappears many of them will too.
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Old 06-04-2018, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
25,306 posts, read 16,514,397 times
Reputation: 12191
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
I never said that either have to leave, did I? You either find some kind of shelter for the homeless to sleep in or they will be allowed by the courts to sleep on the street, which do you prefer? There is no requirement that we do anything to enable the middle class to stay in high cost urban areas, but it's worth talking about and maybe thinking of solutions because the option is that the working class who keep the city running will not be able to afford to stay in these areas if rents keep going up.

People are not going to work 40 + hours and then deliver pizzas or drive for Uber all night in order to have the privilege of living in LA or San Francisco, would you? Working people stay in an area when they believe that there is a chance that they will prosper, when that disappears many of them will too.
Is the requirement that the shelters have to be built right in la where there is like zero land even available and where land is ridiculously high ? Tiny lot’s of land go for millions here .

People do work 40 hours a week and then do uber or deliver pizzas . Or some of these people are working like 12 hours a day doing uber.

I don’t see there being money to build housing for everyone that wants to live in L.A and subsidize it , do you ?
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:01 PM
 
Location: West Los Angeles
10,954 posts, read 10,643,059 times
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2sleepy, you're just plain wrong on this issue. The majority of vagrants in L.A. are in need of psychiatric assistance and your desire to keep them on the streets thwarts any chances they have to get the help they need.
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