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Old 07-06-2018, 04:07 PM
 
Location: On the water.
15,077 posts, read 8,664,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Blacks who get STEM degrees are still twice as likely to have a harder time finding work than Whites and other ethnicities who have STEM degrees. If you think the only degree Black people are pursuing are "pan-African studies" and "communications", then you are the one being ignorant right now.


And what does this have to do with the Confederate flag?
AA’s may (and I believe certainly do) have a much harder time competing for the best paying jobs of their choice ... but I do not buy that anyone with a credible STEM degree goes without scoring an at least decent paying job.

Which brings us back to the topic jumping off point of blacks on skid row ... there aren’t any AA’s with STEM degrees on LA’s skid row ... unless they have experienced some other life misfortune, illness, addiction, etc.

So this tangent is a mute point.
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:16 PM
 
51,911 posts, read 47,730,927 times
Reputation: 16197
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
https://www.thenation.com/article/ne...equal-schools/

NYC has the most segregated school system in the nation, and you historically had substantial residential segregation in NYC and you had race riots. Then again LA and other cities had substantial race riots as well.

Are neo-confederates nice people? No. But you do not need to fly the confederate flag or put on a KKK outfit to be a racist. Large numbers of Blacks and Latinos got their lives destroyed by the war on drugs in major urban centers.

I'm not suggesting you love the flag, or that you stop opposing it. But the problems that harm Black Americans are going to continue with or without the flag. The true issue is Black Americans were historically marginalized and denied education and employment opportunities throughout the country, and only permitted to live in certain areas. Oh, and the war on drugs has been a war on Black people, as Black people use drugs about the same rate as white people but are 5 or 6 times more likely to go to prison for it. Battling that is much more important than caring whether or not someone has a confederate flag on their truck or not.
Again, separate topic for a separate time. I am dealing with what I personally deal with every day. If you want to talk about the school system, imprisonment,etc, you should start a thread on that instead of trying to derail this thread.
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:23 PM
 
51,911 posts, read 47,730,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jowel View Post



It's unfortunate that some places may still seem more racist, and I'm not doubting your experiences. Please do keep in mind that just like the friendliness of place, in my opinion the level of racism varies from one place to another. And as this thread shows, even in areas that aren't stereotypically racist (the South gets a bad rap for this but it can be prevalent in the Northeast, Midwest, and West). As far as people who flaunt having confederate flags and say it's not racist, despite the deep connotations with racism, I would distance myself from them because they probably have other issues going on with them as well that are less than pleasant personality attributes.
Friendliness and racism can vary from place to place, even within states. If I go into Atlanta proper or some one of the better areas like Decatur, Marietta, or Sandy Springs, alot less racism, and no Confederate flags there. If I go into the far-flung suburbs in Paulding County, Bartow County, Carroll County, I'm definitely more likely to see a more "redneck" influence. I'm more likely to see more racism there. This is just Georgia I'm talking about. Personally, I've thought alot about moving to the West and Midwest(upper Midwest particularly). If I'm offered a job out west, I'm taking it.

I've been around people who flaunt the Confederate flag and then claim they aren't racist. I pretty much keep my distance from people who have a great love for the Confederacy. I have enough negative things going on in my life without that going on.
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:25 PM
 
51,911 posts, read 47,730,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
AA’s may (and I believe certainly do) have a much harder time competing for the best paying jobs of their choice ... but I do not buy that anyone with a credible STEM degree goes without scoring an at least decent paying job.

Which brings us back to the topic jumping off point of blacks on skid row ... there aren’t any AA’s with STEM degrees on LA’s skid row ... unless they have experienced some other life misfortune, illness, addiction, etc.

So this tangent is a mute point.
Not saying impossible, just harder. But this is a tangent and it has nothing to do with the Confederate flag. The fact that there are those who try to justify flying the Confederate is just crazy. I've been around that crap living in Georgia (the far-flung exurban areas of the Atlanta area).
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Old 07-06-2018, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Laguna Niguel, Orange County CA
9,809 posts, read 8,286,613 times
Reputation: 7917
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Blacks who get STEM degrees are still twice as likely to have a harder time finding work than Whites and other ethnicities who have STEM degrees. If you think the only degree Black people are pursuing are "pan-African studies" and "communications", then you are the one being ignorant right now.


And what does this have to do with the Confederate flag?
The degree thing is admittedly a tangent and obviously has nothing to do with the Confederate flag.

Of course not all blacks get easy degrees in social science.
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Old 07-07-2018, 07:28 PM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
4,200 posts, read 3,273,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I don't care where he is from. People in those days had no shame in admitting that they were prepared to take up arms and break from the USA to keep slavery. And even some northerners supported the Confederacy.

And wherever the Stainless Banner originate, it represents the Confederate cause. Any Confederate flag represents the Confederate cause. And that cause was rooted in the desire to keep slavery via secession. It's written in the Articles of Secession. It is in Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech. Either way, it represents a reprehensible, disgusting cause. Flying any Confederate flag is showing support for that cause where anyone intends to show support for it or not.

They weren't going to "break up the USA." The Union would not have ceased to exist, it simply wouldn't have been as large as it had been prior to secession of the Southern states.


And since you are quite focused on the notion that the South and its residents cared about nothing but slavery, I suggest you educate yourself about the history of tariffs that benefited the North at the expense of the South, such as the Tariff of 1828 and later the Morrill Tariff of 1861 that resulted from the Panic of 1857.



https://www.dailyprogress.com/opinio...a4bcf6878.html
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:10 AM
 
25,411 posts, read 18,903,248 times
Reputation: 9886
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Again, separate topic for a separate time. I am dealing with what I personally deal with every day. If you want to talk about the school system, imprisonment,etc, you should start a thread on that instead of trying to derail this thread.
Absolutely not. Because quite frankly the Confederate flag is not a LA issue, and what you go through in the South is IRRELEVANT to Los Angeles.

Don't like the Confederate flag flying where you live?

Why should anyone care about it?

Truthfully, if someone wants to fly the FLAG on their HOUSE, unless there is a LAW specifically stating that they cannot fly the confederate flag they are well within their LEGAL rights.

Now if you want to campaign for the flag itself to be illegal, go ahead and do so. But until the the Confederate flag is LEGAL no matter how repellant it maybe.

I'm personally more concerned about real things that affect real people, and since this is the LA forum, if anyone wants to talk about racial issues people should be discussing the massive disparities in wealth and education among Blacks and Whites in LA, mass incarceration, and the horrible HOMELESS problem and how to deal with and fix it, as it's a public health and safety concern (and disproportionate to LA's population, Blacks are literally down on Skid Row).

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 07-08-2018 at 02:18 AM..
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:34 AM
 
25,411 posts, read 18,903,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
No doubt there was blatant racism with housing in the past not just for blacks but Hispanics and others too . Chinatown’s came about due to racism /segregation too . Jewish people lived in certain areas too at one point and places had signs saying “No Jews no dogs “

I also agree those industries aren’t too diverse . Film seems relatively diverse on camera but not on screen.

Regarding blacks not having jobs in the tech sector etc .. is it more that they are less likely to study computer science in college or they have those degrees and aren’t getting hired ?
Yes, Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians (and Jews) were all often excluded from certain areas.

Less likely to study computer science is a factor. But not having the social networks or support to work in tech is a factor too. You don't need a degree in computer science or even a degree to work in tech. Tech is like film, having referrals and being around people who know tech or the industry go a big way in helping you get jobs in that field.

Basically, if everyone you're around is poor, then there's really no one around to give you proper advice.

Jim Rohn: You're The Average Of The Five People You Spend The Most Time With - Business Insider

Of course, marginalized people will have to fight their way out of being marginalized and make the effort to be around more diverse groups of people, just as the mainstream needs to stop persecuting people and pushing them to the margins of society.

I do think it's much better to go after the affects of institutional racism and marginalization than just worry about a flag, and now I'm not suggesting that people should fly the flag. But is it illegal to fly the Confederate flag on private property in California? If it isn't, then I think private homeowners are within their rights to do so. That doesn't give them the right to harass or assault anyone due to their race, which is very much ILLEGAL in California and in the nation.

There are a lot of things I don't like . I don't like Fox News. But Fox News is perfectly LEGAL and you can watch it all you want to in your house.

Now that I think about it, the cross is a Christian symbol, but it was used as a hate symbol by the KKK. While burning crosses on someone's lawn is ILLEGAL (it's harassment and intimidation), Christians are allowed to have crosses on or in their houses.

I do think some uses of the confederate flag are racist, and others not necessarily so. Museums, monuments, and other things relating to history can fly the Confederate flag. Six Flags over Georgia used to fly the US flag, the Georgia Flag, the British Flag, the Spanish Flag, the Confederate Flag, and one other flag as all of the six flags that have flown over Georgia. To me that is not at all offensive.

I've seen monuments in Mobile, AL that had all the flags that flew over Mobile, French, Spanish, US, Alabama, and Confederate. I don't see that as offensive either.

Now if someone has a sign up saying America for whites only AND the Confederate flag up, quite obviously they are using it as a racist symbol. Using that, or anything else to frighten people is wrong and cannot be tolerated.

But on historical monuments? It's a part of the nation's history, and the civil war lead to the 14th amendment which legally ended slavery.
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Old 07-08-2018, 05:56 PM
 
89 posts, read 64,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
And just what you taxes were those? This taxation argument is Lost Cause revisionist apologetics. And one that makes the odd argument that treason and rebelllion because economic policy isn’t going your way is more justified than treason and rebellion over the protection of slavery. But again, to just what taxes are you referring?
I'm no apologist for the Confederacy, I don't agree with most of things they stood for, that said, I also try not to be ignorant on any given subject. I don't allow one thing to cloud my judgement on everything else, i.e. I don't let the fact that the South still owned slaves (the North owned slaves too, you know?) and the false narrative that the war was solely about the South wanting to continue owning slaves cloud my judgement on all of the facts, sadly with most liberals today, that's the norm.

Quote:
"My policy sought only to collect the Revenue (a 40 percent federal sales tax on imports to Southern States under the Morrill Tariff Act of 1861)." reads paragraph 5 of Lincoln's First Message to the U.S. Congress, penned July 4, 1861.

"I have no purpose, directly or in-directly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so," Lincoln said it his first inaugural on March 4 of the same year.
https://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf...oric_is_i.html

Of course, the article is only the opinion of a historian but you can't refute historical quotations, even if they don't fit your agenda.
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Old 07-08-2018, 06:05 PM
 
89 posts, read 64,239 times
Reputation: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I live in the South as well. I get to see the issue of the Confederate flag up close. I have been living in Georgia since the mid 1990s. For a time the southern cross version of the Confederate flag was part of Georgia's state flag. When I learned about the Civil War and the Confederacy over the years, it was enough to be against the Confederacy. It was enough for me to have a disdain for the Confederate flag.
It's ironic, I remember when the voters of Georgia demanded that the "confederate flag" be removed from the Georgia State flag and cheered when they changed it to the current flag.

What most people never realized, was that Georgia's state flag was using the confederate battle flag as their flag and when there was outcry over its racist past and a demand for change, the politicians in Georgia just changed it to mimic the "actual" confederate flag.

Georgia's current state flag:



The actual real "confederate flag":



They got the voters in Georgia good...
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