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Old 07-04-2018, 08:46 AM
 
Location: the Permian Basin
4,200 posts, read 3,283,811 times
Reputation: 5929

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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tappan_Thompson

From someone who actually lived back in those days, his words on the "Stainless Banner":

You're using the words of a native of Ohio to besmirch the South? That's quite a stretch.





Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
That is where the Virginia Battle Flag derived from, the "Stainless Banner".
I'm afraid you've got that backwards. The Second National Flag, aka the Stainless Banner, was derived from the Battle Flag when a replacement for the Stars and Bars (1st National) was sought.
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Old 07-04-2018, 08:49 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,234,667 times
Reputation: 10185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve40th View Post
Ignorant and easily influenced people are offended. The flag itself was a Virginia Battle Flag. Trying to attach a flag to racism, slavery etc etc is sad.
The USA flag was the only flag used by this country during legal slavery, which was a very short time 150 plus years ago.
Sophistry. The United States wasn’t founded for the expressed purpose of protecting slavery, the so called Confederacy was. Had there been no slavery to protect there wouldn’t have been a southern rebellion.

Trying the separate the rebel flags from the cause they represented is what’s sad. And hypocritical.
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Old 07-04-2018, 08:54 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,234,667 times
Reputation: 10185
Quote:
Originally Posted by kr7 View Post
Freedom of speech, people are too sensitive these days.
People have a right to fly the rebellion’s flag but others also have the right to be offended and think the person flying such a flag is a racist and a jerk. As conservatives love to say, people have to take responsibility for their actions and expect consequences.

Last edited by Irishtom29; 07-04-2018 at 09:14 AM..
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:25 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,234,667 times
Reputation: 10185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
You're using the words of a native of Ohio to besmirch the South?
Not the South, only those Southerners who rebelled against the United States. I don’t think the 40% or so of Southerners who were enslaved are besmirched, nor the many white Southerners from rebellious states (about 30,000 from Tennessee for instance) who fought for the American cause against the rebellion. Nor those southern states such as Missouri, Kentucky and Maryland that remained loyal to the United States.

All in all I venture to say the rebel flags represented a minority of southern people at the time of the rebellion and certainly not “The South”.

Last edited by Irishtom29; 07-04-2018 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:27 AM
 
52,117 posts, read 47,870,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
You're using the words of a native of Ohio to besmirch the South? That's quite a stretch.







I'm afraid you've got that backwards. The Second National Flag, aka the Stainless Banner, was derived from the Battle Flag when a replacement for the Stars and Bars (1st National) was sought.
I don't care where he is from. People in those days had no shame in admitting that they were prepared to take up arms and break from the USA to keep slavery. And even some northerners supported the Confederacy.

And wherever the Stainless Banner originate, it represents the Confederate cause. Any Confederate flag represents the Confederate cause. And that cause was rooted in the desire to keep slavery via secession. It's written in the Articles of Secession. It is in Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech. Either way, it represents a reprehensible, disgusting cause. Flying any Confederate flag is showing support for that cause where anyone intends to show support for it or not.
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:28 AM
 
95 posts, read 60,983 times
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My favorite is the "celebrating our Southern heritage" crowd. Flying the flag of losers who opposed freedom? Why can't people just admit they're racist instead of pretending to be historians and deflecting by claiming everyone is soft and too easily offended? Just sack up and admit you support slavery: then and now. Would flying a Nazi flag be okay?

Last edited by Silver_Surfer; 07-04-2018 at 09:38 AM..
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:46 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,234,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Surfer View Post
Would flying a Nazi flag be okay?
Keeping in mind the Germans were far less of a threat to the United States than the so called Confederacy was.
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:47 AM
 
89 posts, read 64,624 times
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The CSA was formed, and states started to secede, because of unjust taxation from the North. At the time of the formation of the CSA, slaves had not yet been freed, although many (not all) states in the North had already started abolishing the practice.

The CSA was formed February 4th, 1861, the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't passed until January 1st, 1863 by executive order.

Quote:
His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust.
In a letter to Horace Greeley, editor of the New York Times:

Quote:
Executive Mansion,
Washington, August 22, 1862.

Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.
I had family that fought on both sides of the war, half from Ohio, half from Tennessee. I'm not one to say that slavery wasn't an issue, because it was. The South depended on slave labor due to the sheer amount of agricultural cash crops that it had. The North wasn't able to grow said crops and needed the South to supply them. After being taxed to death, the South started dealing with other countries and the North started cutting off supply routes.

I'm not one to fly confederate flags myself, despite the fact that It's in my heritage. I'm married to a black woman myself and it's not in my nature to "offend" people, especially those with weak and frail psyche's. HOWEVER, I take offense to the notion that the North had a higher moral ground than the South, as if the North hadn't owned slaves. It's akin to being a smoker for most of your life, quitting on a Monday, then shaming all of your friends that Friday for continuing to smoke.

There's just as much blood and blame on the American flag as there is that of the Confederate.

Anyway, this is a super odd conversation to be having in a Los Angeles forum.
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:57 AM
 
7,450 posts, read 4,974,385 times
Reputation: 9291
In the 1860s, my ancestors lived in Prussia. I don't feel the need to fly the Prussian flag in my backyard (or elsewhere) to honor my ancestors or the long-gone country where they lived 155 years ago.

The only flag I raise on my flag pole every day is the American flag.

Because TODAY, in 2018, I am a proud citizen of the United States of America.

Happy July 4th everyone!

Last edited by RosieSD; 07-04-2018 at 10:09 AM..
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Old 07-04-2018, 10:08 AM
 
52,117 posts, read 47,870,767 times
Reputation: 16243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
People have a right to fly the rebellion’s flag but others also have the right to be offended and think the person flying such a flag is a racist and a jerk. As conservatives love to say, people have to take responsibility for their actions and expect consequences.
With great freedom comes great responsibility. And this is the thing. I agree with what you are saying. This is the U.S. of A. No one is going to prison for flying the Confederate flag, the flag of traitors, the flag of those who sought to continue the institution of slavery and rip the country apart over it. Said persons have the right to fly that flag. You won't get locked up for it. However, this is not about whether a person has the freedom to fly the Confederate flag. This is about consideration for others. This is about right and wrong. This is about this question: SHOULD you fly the Confederate flag? It isn't about CAN you fly it?

Based on the historical evidence, the answer is no. There are not its, ands or buts. The answer is no. No one should fly the Confederate flag. It represents a reprehensible cause. It represents a cause where people were willing to fire on and attack their own country just so they could continue the institution of slavery. Is that really the cause anyone wants to represent? If the answer to that question is yes, then said persons are reprehensible and have a morally bankrupt way of thinking.
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