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Old 07-04-2018, 11:29 AM
 
25,363 posts, read 18,879,347 times
Reputation: 9868

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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
With great freedom comes great responsibility. And this is the thing. I agree with what you are saying. This is the U.S. of A. No one is going to prison for flying the Confederate flag, the flag of traitors, the flag of those who sought to continue the institution of slavery and rip the country apart over it. Said persons have the right to fly that flag. You won't get locked up for it. However, this is not about whether a person has the freedom to fly the Confederate flag. This is about consideration for others. This is about right and wrong. This is about this question: SHOULD you fly the Confederate flag? It isn't about CAN you fly it?

Based on the historical evidence, the answer is no. There are not its, ands or buts. The answer is no. No one should fly the Confederate flag. It represents a reprehensible cause. It represents a cause where people were willing to fire on and attack their own country just so they could continue the institution of slavery. Is that really the cause anyone wants to represent? If the answer to that question is yes, then said persons are reprehensible and have a morally bankrupt way of thinking.
My only problem with what you're saying is what the United States did to Blacks in major cities AFTER WW@. Blacks moved from the rural South to large urban areas after tractors and other mechanization made them redundant.

Of course, shortly after the national government and corporations decide to move manufacturing out of urban areas. Not only that, banks denied Black Americans loans and mortgages. Not only that ,but there were other major forms of discrimination in the housing and employment markets. After the civil war in theory African Americans were free, but for the most part all they could still do was work in agriculture or as domestics.

Were the confederates horrible people? Yes. But you had severe segregation in Northern cities and in Los Angeles, and this continued AFTER the civil rights movement.

Before the civil rights movement, the Ivy League was for white males. Non whites and women did not get admitted in any major numbers until discrimination on the basis of race, gender, religion, nationality, etc was made ILLEGAL.

While I don't like the confederate flag, you do not need to fly the confederate flag to be a racist, and I think focusing too much on the confederacy lets the rest of the nation off for it's own bigotry.

And what really freed African Americans from rural labor was technological advancement/mechanization. It was not the "good" whites from the North coming into to save the day. Look at the marginalization of Blacks in Northern ghettoes, or for that matter LA.
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:40 AM
 
Location: California
2,830 posts, read 2,023,685 times
Reputation: 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Surfer View Post
Flying that flag promotes hate. When freedom of speech becomes hate speech, it's a problem. I would proudly burn or rip that flag down. It's no different than flying a Nazi flag. Would you support someone's freedom to display a Nazi flag?

And you're right, these people aren't going to change their ways. But some people are easily influenced. And frankly, I just don't want to see symbols of hate proudly displayed right in front of my face.
Believe me, I agree with where you are coming from, but fighting these people doesn't change anything, it only makes matters worse. It makes the country more divided as you are helping to strengthen the divide.
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Old 07-04-2018, 12:00 PM
 
51,858 posts, read 47,690,997 times
Reputation: 16191
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanst530 View Post


You care way too much about how others live their lives, that's the problem. For the record -- and not that it matters to you -- I do not support the confederacy, nor do I find the flag very tasteful. Nevertheless, if someone wants to wave that flag around on their property, what business is it of mine, or yours for that matter?

More importantly, getting offended at people for choosing to live their lives a way you do not agree with, and harassing them for it, will not make these people change their ways. In fact, it almost always works the opposite way... antagonizing them only pushes them into corner and strengthens their beliefs. It is wholly unproductive. Speak your mind with your money and your votes.
Well, this stuff does have an effect. The Confederate flag issue goes beyond private property. This is about a moral and cultural precedent being set. We all know the history behind the Confederate cause. Why are there people flying the Confederate flag in the first place, considering all of the facts?
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Old 07-04-2018, 12:14 PM
 
51,858 posts, read 47,690,997 times
Reputation: 16191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkj View Post
Quit lying to yourself. This is straight from South Carolina's (the first state to secede in 1860) Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union:

But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution

Now tell me it had nothing to do with slavery.
Thank you!! We need to put the facts out there. The desire to keep slavery was a big part in why the Confederate states wanted secession. I dare someone to refute the facts that you have put out there.
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Old 07-04-2018, 12:20 PM
 
51,858 posts, read 47,690,997 times
Reputation: 16191
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
My only problem with what you're saying is what the United States did to Blacks in major cities AFTER WW@. Blacks moved from the rural South to large urban areas after tractors and other mechanization made them redundant.

Of course, shortly after the national government and corporations decide to move manufacturing out of urban areas. Not only that, banks denied Black Americans loans and mortgages. Not only that ,but there were other major forms of discrimination in the housing and employment markets. After the civil war in theory African Americans were free, but for the most part all they could still do was work in agriculture or as domestics.

Were the confederates horrible people? Yes. But you had severe segregation in Northern cities and in Los Angeles, and this continued AFTER the civil rights movement.

Before the civil rights movement, the Ivy League was for white males. Non whites and women did not get admitted in any major numbers until discrimination on the basis of race, gender, religion, nationality, etc was made ILLEGAL.

While I don't like the confederate flag, you do not need to fly the confederate flag to be a racist, and I think focusing too much on the confederacy lets the rest of the nation off for it's own bigotry.

And what really freed African Americans from rural labor was technological advancement/mechanization. It was not the "good" whites from the North coming into to save the day. Look at the marginalization of Blacks in Northern ghettoes, or for that matter LA.
I'm aware of the prejudice that existed in the northern areas. I'm not refuting that Blacks were often living in the ghettos. Blacks were living in the ghettos everywhere in America. What you are mentioning, while it does relate to racism, is a different topic from what I was discussing and it deflects from what I'm talking about. I know about the abuses in the USA. However, the Confederates main reason for existence was to keep slavery around for much longer.

And before the civil rights movement, the Southeast USA was pretty much the worst place a Black person could be.
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Old 07-04-2018, 12:22 PM
 
51,858 posts, read 47,690,997 times
Reputation: 16191
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanst530 View Post
Believe me, I agree with where you are coming from, but fighting these people doesn't change anything, it only makes matters worse. It makes the country more divided as you are helping to strengthen the divide.
This is the thing. If there are people flying the Confederate flag, that is a sign that we've been divided for a long time. If we are already at or beyond that point, then we need to ask why. Why are those persons who fly Confederate flags do what they do? Why do they pick a symbol that is inherently divisive and represent a cause that nearly literally destroyed this country?
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Old 07-04-2018, 12:32 PM
 
Location: California
2,830 posts, read 2,023,685 times
Reputation: 2692
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
This is the thing. If there are people flying the Confederate flag, that is a sign that we've been divided for a long time. If we are already at or beyond that point, then we need to ask why. Why are those persons who fly Confederate flags do what they do? Why do they pick a symbol that is inherently divisive and represent a cause that nearly literally destroyed this country?
The only reason you feel it is divisive is because you are letting it get to you, which ironically strengthens the divide that already exists, and forces these people who fly hate flags to further defend their viewpoints.

Very, very few adults change their minds when others attack them for expressing their belief in something.

IMO, it is more productive to express your disapproval of such people with your pocketbook and votes.
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Old 07-04-2018, 12:47 PM
 
95 posts, read 60,642 times
Reputation: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanst530 View Post
The only reason you feel it is divisive is because you are letting it get to you, which ironically strengthens the divide that already exists, and forces these people who fly hate flags to further defend their viewpoints.

Very, very few adults change their minds when others attack them for expressing their belief in something.

IMO, it is more productive to express your disapproval of such people with your pocketbook and votes.
I don't disagree entirely but staying silent makes people think displaying a symbol of hate is acceptable.
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Old 07-04-2018, 01:05 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
625 posts, read 427,592 times
Reputation: 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
This is the thing. If there are people flying the Confederate flag, that is a sign that we've been divided for a long time. If we are already at or beyond that point, then we need to ask why. Why are those persons who fly Confederate flags do what they do? Why do they pick a symbol that is inherently divisive and represent a cause that nearly literally destroyed this country?
So basically you are talking about people who fly the Confederate flag and the Mexican flag right? Since Mexico was defeated and thus California is apart of the USA now and not Mexico.
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Old 07-04-2018, 01:46 PM
 
Location: On the water.
15,033 posts, read 8,644,443 times
Reputation: 12332
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfx1024 View Post
So basically you are talking about people who fly the Confederate flag and the Mexican flag right? Since Mexico was defeated and thus California is apart of the USA now and not Mexico.
Oh snap! That’s right! Mexico was a repressive racist regime enslaving Californians!

How quickly we forget! Thanks for the instructive equivalency

Carry on all ...
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