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Old 07-04-2018, 02:20 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,237,497 times
Reputation: 10185

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfx1024 View Post
Also Lincoln was willing to keep slavery going in the South, but the South had had enough of a Federal government trying to tell them how to run their states. This is the big reason outside of the Deep South that the Civil war was fought due to states rights.
Lincoln’s main goal wasn’t the elimination of slavery, it was the suppression of rebellion and the preservation of the Union. Only later during the rebellion did the elimination of slavery become a goal, mainly because elimination of slavery as a goal would weaken the rebellion.

So while the rebels were fighting to preserve slavery the Federals were fighting to preserve the Union, not to destroy slavery. This disconnect between motives is the cause of much confusion and false expectations of proper behavior on the part of Lincoln and the Federals.

As far as states rights, the only states right the rebels cared about was the right to own slaves. Note that the Confederate constitution forbade any of the rebel states from outlawing slavery, certainly a violation of states rights. The slave states were also very keen on the Fugitive Slave Act, a violation of states rights.
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Old 07-04-2018, 02:24 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,237,497 times
Reputation: 10185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
No. The argument is about displaying a symbol identified with racism. Which the Mexican flag is not.
Oh, never mind the racism. I think the problem is the display of a symbol of treason, bloody rebellion and an unwillingness to abide by the results of freely held elections. Which the Mexican flag is not.
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Old 07-04-2018, 02:32 PM
 
Location: On the water.
15,253 posts, read 8,754,247 times
Reputation: 12634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Oh, never mind the racism. I think the problem is the display of a symbol of treason, bloody rebellion and an unwillingness to abide by the results of freely held elections. Which the Mexican flag is not.
Well, yes and no, Tom. You are identifying “a” problem ... a very real one. Good on you.
However, the controversy on the surface - which is about as deep as most people ever go - is racist symbolism.

I’m not judging the issue. I’m clarifying a false representation ... It’s a hobby of mine
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Old 07-04-2018, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
10,716 posts, read 9,355,496 times
Reputation: 12614
How about the Union Jack? We fought two wars against them. On the other hand, after the Revolution, Britain paid compensation for property losses and transported all loyalists, including slaves, at the expense of the Crown for their loyalty and not because there was a law requiring it.

Rule Britania!

For the Scottish side of my family the Confederate Flag is a symbol of two brothers who picked opposite sides during the Civil War. One was killed in battle; the other lost his leg. Their father came from coastal Georgia. Neither their father, or the brothers, owned slaves, mainly because all 3 were career US Military officers.
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Old 07-04-2018, 06:31 PM
 
25,543 posts, read 19,011,281 times
Reputation: 9976
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I'm aware of the prejudice that existed in the northern areas. I'm not refuting that Blacks were often living in the ghettos. Blacks were living in the ghettos everywhere in America. What you are mentioning, while it does relate to racism, is a different topic from what I was discussing and it deflects from what I'm talking about. I know about the abuses in the USA. However, the Confederates main reason for existence was to keep slavery around for much longer.

And before the civil rights movement, the Southeast USA was pretty much the worst place a Black person could be.
That's debatable to the extreme. You had severe persecution of African Americans in the North, who faced assault and worse if they left the areas they were designated too. They weren't allowed to study at universities, and few jobs were available for them. Oh, and unemployment was high.

The high crime rate in Black ghettoes in California and in the Northern states is the legacy of the extreme marginalization of Black people in these areas.

Persecution of Black people is a NATIONAL, not a Southern problem.

And let's not forget the historic mass incarceration of Black people. Black people use drugs at the same rate or less than white people, but are far more likely to be incarcerated. The victims of mass incarceration in California often end up in places like Skid Row.
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Old 07-04-2018, 07:19 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 3,852,878 times
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Should the confederate flag ve equivalent to the NAZI flag? Or is it misunderstood?
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:59 PM
 
52,148 posts, read 47,885,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
That's debatable to the extreme. You had severe persecution of African Americans in the North, who faced assault and worse if they left the areas they were designated too. They weren't allowed to study at universities, and few jobs were available for them. Oh, and unemployment was high.

The high crime rate in Black ghettoes in California and in the Northern states is the legacy of the extreme marginalization of Black people in these areas.

Persecution of Black people is a NATIONAL, not a Southern problem.

And let's not forget the historic mass incarceration of Black people. Black people use drugs at the same rate or less than white people, but are far more likely to be incarcerated. The victims of mass incarceration in California often end up in places like Skid Row.
Persecution of Blacks has taken place throughout America. However, the South had Jim Crow. It was codified into law. As for universities, Blacks were prohibited from southern universities. Were Blacks facing discrimination in the north? Of course they were. I never once said they weren't. Northern universities admitted few Blacks. Southern universities admitted NONE. Blacks were allowed to study at universities. And I know about employment discrimination. That was everywhere in America. Blacks were living in high crime areas everywhere in America, and many still do today.

However, the South, before the civil rights movement, was far worse than anywhere else. Blacks were basically politically disenfranchised. All southern universities that were not HBCU's were basically off limits to Blacks. At least in northern universities there was more opportunities to get in. Blacks in the South had to deal with Jim Crow segregation. They had to deal with laws telling Blacks where they could be, schools by law were required to be segregated, buses, other places of public accomodation. It was literally impossible for Blacks to register to vote. There were lynchings for "being uppity", the lack of opportunities in the South. The USA as a whole was never good for Blacks in the pre-civil rights era. However, the South was worse than anywhere else in those days. The South had Jim Crow codified into law.

And what does any of this have to do with the Confederate flag issue?
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:43 PM
 
95 posts, read 61,034 times
Reputation: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jowel View Post
I'm in the South, which I think gives me some unique perspective on this issue.

Honestly, a lot of this is coming from people who want to be contrarian, to give a "middle finger" to what they see as the politically correct bogeyman telling them what they can and say or do. That's the message that has been sent from the top down, that it's okay to say whatever you want anytime you want, with the illusion of having no negative consequences.

Are some people flying a confederate flag to be openly racist? Yes, that's certainly possible. But I think equally or more likely is the possibility that they don't care it's divisive and that they feel a need to do something the politically correct crowd (as they see it) isn't going to approve of. And chances are someone like that is going to be uncouth and spiteful with other issues, so they're probably the type to turn the music up when someone asks them politely to turn it down, etc.

Here, we don't have people flying these flags nearly as the national media would want the rest of the country to believe. It's very rare in urban and suburban areas, but occasionally you do see this, more often in rural areas. Actually, there are more confederate flags in upper Appalachia (West Virginia, parts of Maryland & Ohio) than the deep South. Also, I saw this story and think it's interesting that the media likes to portray the southeast (particularly the rural southeast) as being backwards, openly racist and full of ignorant people, but if the intent of the flyer is to be racist, this is one example of many that shows that problem is not confined to one corner of the country.

Personally, even if they think they can "prove" the historic argument that they aren't being racist (the "Heritage not Hate" argument), I don't see the purpose of flying a flag that has been used for very racist purposes by many, and they know is going to be perceived as unfriendly towards certain people. Because of that, it just seems rude to do this. It's one of those things where "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should" applies.

I got here from the "new posts" tab on the forum so I wanted to chime in.
Please stop lumping all journalism into "the media". Actual journalists shouldn't be placed in the same all-encompassing group as Breitbart and others.
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Old 07-04-2018, 11:44 PM
 
95 posts, read 61,034 times
Reputation: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicano3000X View Post
Should the confederate flag ve equivalent to the NAZI flag? Or is it misunderstood?
Both are symbols of hate.
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:36 AM
 
25,543 posts, read 19,011,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Surfer View Post
Both are symbols of hate.
Agreed.

Both are also symbols of defeated regimes. The Nazis lost WW2 and the Confederates lost the civil war.
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