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Old 10-22-2021, 12:43 PM
 
14,316 posts, read 14,114,131 times
Reputation: 45504

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
So you are claiming in Jacobson vs Massachusetts federal laws that allow for vaccine exemptions for employees based on religious beliefs do not need to be followed? That would be Title seven of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the disability status under Title one of the Americans with Disabilities Act where the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission confirm these exemptions in May of 2021. Employers must comply with the reasonable accommodation provisions of the ADA and Title seven of the Civil Rights Act of 64 and other EEO considerations, the commission said in a statement.

So we do not have sovereignty over our own bodies? The courts have been explicit where in 1965 the use of contraceptives in Griswold versus Connecticut, Loving vs Virginia, 1967, you can marry anyone regardless of race. Roe vs Wade, you’re free to abort a baby in the first trimester. You may not be subjected to experimental drugs or therapies without your consent, even if you’re in the military, United States vs Stanley, 1987. You’re allowed to refuse medical treatment, including interventions that may save your life, Cruzan vs director, Missouri Department of Health, 1990. You’re allowed to have sexual relations with people of the same sex Lawrence vs. Texas, 2003. You’re allowed to marry them. Oprah, Cofell vs Hodges, 2015. These cases clearly show in the modern era of the last half century explicitly the right of individuals to their own bodies. Yes, I will bleat out “sovereignty of your own body” because there is Supreme Court precedent of sovereignty over you body.”

You’re attempting to push an argument that what employers are doing to their employees is a slam dunk based off Jacobson vs Massachusetts. It’s not.
A state can pass a compulsory vaccination law and not have religious exemptions to it. No states yet have passed a mandatory covid vaccination law for all citizens though so that is fairly irrelevant.

A private employer requiring vaccinations from employees must respect Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. Title VII does require that *bonafide* religious exemptions to vaccination be granted. However, that employer can mandate vaccination.

Griswold and Roe have nothing to do with laws put in place to protect the spread of infectious disease. The vaccines are not experimental. Some are fully approved for use by FDA. Others are approved subject to an emergency use authorization. That is not experimental, but anyone believing it is has the right to insist on vaccination with the Pfizer vaccine which is approved.

You're fighting a losing battle here. We'll soon see even more court decisions allowing employers to terminate employees without a valid religious exemption for failing to vaccinate.

Those who refuse to vaccinate will increasingly become a smaller and smaller minority that will be pushed into leading lesser lives than the rest of us. The smart decision is to vaccinate.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:08 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
6,602 posts, read 4,817,614 times
Reputation: 3591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
You’re analogy makes zero sense. You do understand what natural immunity is where there are studies showing natural immunity is better than the vaccine? So even if you already have antibodies to covid, get vaccinated so that you can have more antibodies? Well, by that logic, shouldn’t someone who is vaccinated attempt to get infected so that they too have more antibodies?
Infection is dangerous. Vaccination is very low-risk for almost everyone, similar to x-rays. What's more, raise a stink about 'unnecessary,' 'invasive' x-rays and the office can fire the patient. Refusal to follow procedures gets people fired, nothing new. One can also analogize with x-ray scanners at airports.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:53 PM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,292,764 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
Infection is dangerous. Vaccination is very low-risk for almost everyone, similar to x-rays. What's more, raise a stink about 'unnecessary,' 'invasive' x-rays and the office can fire the patient. Refusal to follow procedures gets people fired, nothing new. One can also analogize with x-ray scanners at airports.
You’re hilariously reaching.
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Old 10-22-2021, 02:29 PM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,292,764 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
A state can pass a compulsory vaccination law and not have religious exemptions to it. No states yet have passed a mandatory covid vaccination law for all citizens though so that is fairly irrelevant.

A private employer requiring vaccinations from employees must respect Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. Title VII does require that *bonafide* religious exemptions to vaccination be granted. However, that employer can mandate vaccination.

Griswold and Roe have nothing to do with laws put in place to protect the spread of infectious disease. The vaccines are not experimental. Some are fully approved for use by FDA. Others are approved subject to an emergency use authorization. That is not experimental, but anyone believing it is has the right to insist on vaccination with the Pfizer vaccine which is approved.

You're fighting a losing battle here. We'll soon see even more court decisions allowing employers to terminate employees without a valid religious exemption for failing to vaccinate.

Those who refuse to vaccinate will increasingly become a smaller and smaller minority that will be pushed into leading lesser lives than the rest of us. The smart decision is to vaccinate.
This what makes the covid shot mandate argument absurd. It is proven that if you get the covid shot, you can still get infected with covid and spread covid. This isn’t about safety, these mandates is about something else.
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:13 PM
 
Location: San Diego Native
4,433 posts, read 2,390,968 times
Reputation: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
There are always nuances. However, compulsory vaccination laws do not violate the due process clause or any other provision of the constitution. I wouldn't dwell too much on the $5 in the Jacobson case. In 1905, $5 was a considerable sum of money. Massachusetts could have imposed a $500 fine and that still would have been constitutional.

The point wasn't the dollar amount, the point was in the end Henning Jacobson was never vaccinated.
A case like that wouldn't even reach the U.S. Supreme Court in the modern world either and iirc, Jacobson acted as his own counsel. No way that would fly in 2021.
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:18 PM
 
Location: San Diego Native
4,433 posts, read 2,390,968 times
Reputation: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
You guys keep avoiding the real point. Massachusetts or any state could have done more than choose to impose a $150.00 fine. The court's opinion basically gave them carte blanche when it came to imposing a penalty for non-compliance. You probably understand that. Its just a question of trying to disagree even though the law is clearly against your position.

Absolutely not. The Supreme Court purposely avoids overly broad decisions, and the fact that there was an alternative to getting vaccinated in Massachusetts (the fine) was key in that ruling. Once more, when the dust settled, Henning Jacobson successfully refused the smallpox vaccine.

Last edited by joosoon; 10-22-2021 at 07:33 PM..
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:31 PM
 
Location: San Diego Native
4,433 posts, read 2,390,968 times
Reputation: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
I've belonged to unions they don't trump the law, otherwise they would carve out all sorts of exceptions for themselves.

Of course not, but that's not what I said.
The city of LA is the employer, and LAPD (among others) are the employees who work under a negotiated contract. If the city of LA enacts an ordinance that alters conditions of employment, it's a labor issue, is it not? It would be different if the vaccine order was coming from higher up.


Quote:
And this thing about "legitimate medical exemptions", the only legitimate medical exemptions are severe (anaphylactic) reaction to a previous dose of the vaccine, or an allergy to PEG (propylene glycol) I really doubt if every many cops will qualify for a medical exemption.


Is there a defined list of medical exemptions in this particular case? I'm asking. That's been a sticking point for awhile, as was "legitimate religious" exemptions. Part of the lawsuit was the lack of time allotted to employees to even submit their exemption requests. That's what I was talking about. If all exemptions are dismissed out of hand, in effect there is no avenue to receive one. It's not asking for much to extend the time to allow that processing.



Or, better yet, just incentivize getting the vaccine considering they're at nearly 71% last I checked. Carrot beats stick, imo.
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:36 PM
 
Location: San Diego Native
4,433 posts, read 2,390,968 times
Reputation: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Griswold and Roe have nothing to do with laws put in place to protect the spread of infectious disease.

That's not how precedence works.
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:41 PM
 
Location: San Diego Native
4,433 posts, read 2,390,968 times
Reputation: 4801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
This what makes the covid shot mandate argument absurd. It is proven that if you get the covid shot, you can still get infected with covid and spread covid.

The state's argument in the prison guard suit is that the employee mandate isn't designed to protect the incarcerated, partly because the rate of vaccination of the incarcerated is substantially higher than those subject to the mandate. This is Newsom and co. literally arguing that the vaccine is unnecessary to protect others because they are not at risk from staff.
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Old 10-22-2021, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,745 posts, read 25,916,011 times
Reputation: 33842
Vaccine Mandates Are Surviving Court Challenges

Quote:
“A range of people—from nurses to firefighters to students—have filed lawsuits objecting to the mandatory Covid-19 vaccinations imposed by states and cities, claiming the policies infringe on their constitutional rights,” the Wall Street Journal reports. “Nearly every legal challenge has failed so far.” https://politicalwire.com/2021/10/22...rt-challenges/
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