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Old 10-14-2021, 09:41 PM
 
14,375 posts, read 14,203,333 times
Reputation: 45695

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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
Losing thousands of work hours being sick isn't the most effective service, and now it's mostly avoidable.

Also, persuasion doesn't work on people who refuse to listen or use dubious counterarguments. I personally would've emphasized risk of infection, particularly non-fatal consequences, to unvaccinated people who are 30+, but it's too late for that now. Attitudes clearly too entrenched in, for example, what if the vaccine causes side effects years from now.

Police who don't like it can quit, but it's not okay to loudly spread bogus science (e.g., implied lack of risk of serious consequences to people who are reasonably healthy and not elderly) , vaguely threaten to undermine safety by quitting en masse, or encourage each other to falsely claim religiosity they don't have. Those behaviors are not up to standards police allegedly abide by.

The only valid argument I see is for a delay to seek new employment, given that mandatory vaccination is somewhat of a surprise for police (but not so for healthcare workers and the military and hence constitutionality "liberty" arguments are very unlikely to work). I'd just as well agree to pay suspended officers for a month or a little more and let them keep their health benefits too (which they probably can in any form of suspension) rather than delay the mandate.
The taxpayers are paying a lot of money to not only pay police, but to pay for their health insurance as well. If cops are sick and in the hospital or otherwise unable to come to work the taxpayers are not getting their money worth. This is one important justification for mandating that public employees get vaccinated. I don't believe more than a small number of cops would quit over this mandate, but if they do they are not irreplaceable.

I also wonder about a sick cop spreading Covid and making a member of the public deathly ill. It might create a situation where they would have been better not calling law enforcement in the first place.
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Old 10-15-2021, 04:50 AM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,302,971 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Whooops. You jumped to a conclusion that is unfounded. But perhaps I should have explained better: I was not suggesting that these non-enforcement tasks be performed by inexperienced ‘civilians’. Those functions I listed can be handled by trained personnel who interact with traditional LEOs within the larger department.

You trained and operated as an armed combatant. The equipment and applications you carried and utilized are simply not necessary, nor appropriate, for many of calls you responded to. In fact, certain events are specifically better served without the intimidation many civilians feel when engaged by helmets, badges, boots, firearms, body armor, etc.

Trained combatants are, rightly, compensated for their level of risks. In my service, I received a modest base pay always (and flight pay often) … but when in theatre I received additional combat pay, plus additional hazardous duty pay for some of my particular assignments. You received a higher rate of pay that reflected being at risk everyday. Measuring skid marks and calming cat ladies require training … but not much risk. Thus there are potential budgetary savings that can be applied to more personnel, of all types.

So, branches of trained personnel in larger departments. Anyway, I won’t belabor this tangent because I’ve only conversational familiarity. Point was to counter the poor phrase “Defund the Police” with some clarification of what a number of police departments have done and are transitioning to that is intended to improve policing through better allocation of funds / resources.

That all said, the on-topic connection is: when I served, the military gave me no option to being a human pin-cushion, shot full of drugs and vaccines. Without arguing the right or wrong of this particular Covid vaccine, I’ll point out the connection to adherence to command protocols. Whether the troops like it or not, military service requires absolute fealty to command. Like it or not, orders is orders. Unless you have an extraordinary reason to buck Cap’n Bligh, mutiny doesn’t play well, to put it mildly. You cops can walk away from orders any time you want. Quit if you don’t agree with command.
Of course I assumed these non-LE non-uniformed agencies would be trained. I explained to you, these tasks, especially investigations cannot be learned from reading a book. It takes a level of street experience. True, it doesn’t require police in full SWAT gear searching for witnesses and interviewing these persons. I don’t know what police department does that. These Detectives are usually wearing a suit and tie. They display their shield and have their service weapon on them, but outside of that, they look like a businessman.

How do you know responding to a vehicle accident isn’t a non-enforcement matter? How can that be predicted? What calls do police respond to that do not require wearing the uniform of the day, a gun belt with the equipment on it, and the bullet resistant vest underneath? What calls are these? Noise complaints? Calls for help? What are you talking about? An EDP? As I have already explained, EMS already respond to EDP calls and have since I was a rookie. They are an aided case. Police and EMS respond to them together. 99.9% of the time these calls go without incident. You’re trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Police is not the military. You know you are getting a bunch of jabs when you sign those papers. Jabs that have been around a long time. Why does anyone including the military need a covid jab for a virus that younger people like cops and military are not high risk of? Please explain the science to me? If you can’t, point to someone who can? I would love to hear it.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:08 AM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,302,971 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The taxpayers are paying a lot of money to not only pay police, but to pay for their health insurance as well. If cops are sick and in the hospital or otherwise unable to come to work the taxpayers are not getting their money worth. This is one important justification for mandating that public employees get vaccinated. I don't believe more than a small number of cops would quit over this mandate, but if they do they are not irreplaceable.

I also wonder about a sick cop spreading Covid and making a member of the public deathly ill. It might create a situation where they would have been better not calling law enforcement in the first place.
You are aware police get sick leave, that’s all figured into the budget. Just stop with the nonsense. Again, most police officers are young and are not high risk to covid. There are far more serious concerns for police than covid. Heart disease, using tobacco products, stress, alcohol, bad eating habits, and so on.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:11 AM
 
17,390 posts, read 11,938,010 times
Reputation: 16137
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
My position is that if they refuse to vaccinate they should suffer consequences for not doing so. They shouldn't be allowed to go everywhere and do everything that those of us who have vaxed can do.

Yes, everything in life is a risk, but some risks are worse than others. The risk of dying of covid is far greater if you don't get vaccinated. The risk that you will take up space in an emergency room that is needed by a heart patient or an accident victim is much greater if you don't vaccinate. No one has yet put on a convincing case that there are serious safety issues with the vaccines. What I have seen is distortion of numbers and a series of sad failed attempts.

People can get vaccinated or lead a lesser life. Those are the choices.
Far greater? Prove it.

What IS proven is that those with multiple underlying health conditions ARE at greater risk of dying. So should we fire all the folks with more than one underlying health condition? You know, get healthy or lead a lesser life? They already take up valuable emergency room space that could better be used for heart patients or accident victims. Time to destroy their lives as well, I see.

In the meantime, get back to me when ONLY the unvaccinated can get the virus. We know that's not true, which makes it also true that the vaccinated can spread the virus. So the only thing I see here is an attempt to control those that don't think like you, and have CHOSEN to forgo the vaccine.

The level of arrogance shown by those that are determined to decide how others should live their lives, while ignoring the science of antibodies being present in those that have already gotten covid, is mind blowing.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:11 AM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,302,971 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
I comprehend it and agree, but it is not their choice to keep their current job and refuse to be vaccinated, why is that so hard for you to understand?
I have already stated if their department wants to fire them for not getting the covid shot, then fire them. I would rather be fired than compromise my principles. I will find a police job somewhere else that doesn’t require a covid shot. The United States is in a police shortage crisis. Police departments are hiring everywhere throughout the nation.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:14 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,668 posts, read 16,206,395 times
Reputation: 19760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf View Post
Of course I assumed these non-LE non-uniformed agencies would be trained. I explained to you, these tasks, especially investigations cannot be learned from reading a book. It takes a level of street experience. True, it doesn’t require police in full SWAT gear searching for witnesses and interviewing these persons. I don’t know what police department does that. These Detectives are usually wearing a suit and tie. They display their shield and have their service weapon on them, but outside of that, they look like a businessman.

How do you know responding to a vehicle accident isn’t a non-enforcement matter? How can that be predicted? What calls do police respond to that do not require wearing the uniform of the day, a gun belt with the equipment on it, and the bullet resistant vest underneath? What calls are these? Noise complaints? Calls for help? What are you talking about? An EDP? As I have already explained, EMS already respond to EDP calls and have since I was a rookie. They are an aided case. Police and EMS respond to them together. 99.9% of the time these calls go without incident. You’re trying to reinvent the wheel here.

Police is not the military. You know you are getting a bunch of jabs when you sign those papers. Jabs that have been around a long time. Why does anyone including the military need a covid jab for a virus that younger people like cops and military are not high risk of? Please explain the science to me? If you can’t, point to someone who can? I would love to hear it.
Lol officer. Don’t ask me to parse out the details of these reallocation plans and efforts. As I said, I’ve only conversational familiarity. The programs exist already in several cities and planned for more. Look at Eugene, OR, and Camden, NJ and other units for information on how they do what they do given your concerns. All I am doing is pointing out that “Defund the Police” isn’t about dismantling public safety services and destroying enforcement capabilities. It’s about reimagining, reorganizing, reallocating for greater effectiveness and efficiency. Evolution can be a good thing (even with the US Constitution). It’s a sh8tty term seized on contentiously by opportunistic extremes both right and left. Stupid. Agreed.

And I agreed also that the military and the police are different services. But command protocol is absolutely necessary for both functions. In the military you commit to a full set of additional laws / justice system (with the UCMJ) that can’t be bucked and protested. Cops can just walk away anytime. Regardless of your view of the rightness or wrongness of being ordered to vaccine, you guys in blue can take a hike. I am not offering any argument about the science or sensibility. I’m pointing out that command sets the rules of employment. Lucky blue gets to walk. I couldn’t so was a pin-cushion for my career. Somehow I survived to draw my pension.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:19 AM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,302,971 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
Losing thousands of work hours being sick isn't the most effective service, and now it's mostly avoidable.

Also, persuasion doesn't work on people who refuse to listen or use dubious counterarguments. I personally would've emphasized risk of infection, particularly non-fatal consequences, to unvaccinated people who are 30+, but it's too late for that now. Attitudes clearly too entrenched in, for example, what if the vaccine causes side effects years from now.

Police who don't like it can quit, but it's not okay to loudly spread bogus science (e.g., implied lack of risk of serious consequences to people who are reasonably healthy and not elderly) , vaguely threaten to undermine safety by quitting en masse, or encourage each other to falsely claim religiosity they don't have. Those behaviors are not up to standards police allegedly abide by.

The only valid argument I see is for a delay to seek new employment, given that mandatory vaccination is somewhat of a surprise for police (but not so for healthcare workers and the military and hence constitutionality "liberty" arguments are very unlikely to work). I'd just as well agree to pay suspended officers for a month or a little more and let them keep their health benefits too (which they probably can in any form of suspension) rather than delay the mandate.
What science is bogus? It’s not bogus science. You can look at the data and you get healthier people are not high risk to covid. There isn’t an expert that would deny that. And why should a police officer who has already been infected with covid be required to get the jab if they have natural immunity? Has the science been settled on natural immunity compared to vaccination?

Police already get sick time which is factored into the budget and what sick time a police officer doesn’t use, they are compensated for it.

So you think mandating someone to get a covid shot or be fired is better? That’s a great way to boost morale. No, I put the onus on you to fire me. I won’t resign. You fire me.

Last edited by Nyfinestbxtf; 10-15-2021 at 05:34 AM..
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:48 AM
 
2,378 posts, read 1,302,971 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Lol officer. Don’t ask me to parse out the details of these reallocation plans and efforts. As I said, I’ve only conversational familiarity. The programs exist already in several cities and planned for more. Look at Eugene, OR, and Camden, NJ and other units for information on how they do what they do given your concerns. All I am doing is pointing out that “Defund the Police” isn’t about dismantling public safety services and destroying enforcement capabilities. It’s about reimagining, reorganizing, reallocating for greater effectiveness and efficiency. Evolution can be a good thing (even with the US Constitution). It’s a sh8tty term seized on contentiously by opportunistic extremes both right and left. Stupid. Agreed.

And I agreed also that the military and the police are different services. But command protocol is absolutely necessary for both functions. In the military you commit to a full set of additional laws / justice system (with the UCMJ) that can’t be bucked and protested. Cops can just walk away anytime. Regardless of your view of the rightness or wrongness of being ordered to vaccine, you guys in blue can take a hike. I am not offering any argument about the science or sensibility. I’m pointing out that command sets the rules of employment. Lucky blue gets to walk. I couldn’t so was a pin-cushion for my career. Somehow I survived to draw my pension.
That’s a term often used by the likes of AOC. Reimagine the economy, reimagine the climate, reimagine policing. Lmao. I just had to laugh.

Yes, some police departments are experimenting with sending other agencies to public safety calls, like EDP’s and so on. Fine. That’s great. I hated EDP jobs as most cops do, but we handled those jobs well. What happens when that EDP gets violent and decides to use deadly force? Wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a cop on the scene now would it? But you also have stated reimagining police departments where they don’t search for missing persons, respond to vehicle accidents, process crime scenes and investigate those crimes, and get cats out of trees. Why have a police department then? Just have a unarmed agency where their uniform of the day is of a rainbow pattern and have them provide all the public safety? Reimagine!

What about domestic disputes? Crisis teams respond to those? What if there was an assault? What if there is a weapon unbeknownst to those responding?

Yup, police get to walk away. I wouldn’t. The onus is on you to fire me.

Last edited by Nyfinestbxtf; 10-15-2021 at 06:18 AM..
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Old 10-15-2021, 06:41 AM
 
Location: So Ca
26,657 posts, read 26,627,701 times
Reputation: 24707
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaughanWilliams33 View Post
Chicago's police department is not mandating the vaccine. You want to know why? 50% of their police will quit or be fired.
https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-poli...ovid/11128802/

Lightfoot, police unions continue high-stakes game of chicken on vaccine mandate for city workers:
https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-ha...foot-catanzara
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Old 10-15-2021, 06:44 AM
 
Location: So Ca
26,657 posts, read 26,627,701 times
Reputation: 24707
Quote:
Originally Posted by hertzian56 View Post
The CDC reclassified, Pneumonia, Influenza and Covid as one big stat called PIC in 2020 so there's no way to know by the stats they push in our faces which of those three one has or died from if they do die.
An Instagram post falsely claims that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is reporting all pneumonia and influenza deaths as caused by COVID-19. That’s wrong and is based on a misreading of one type of monitoring the agency conducts.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/in...ath-reporting/
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