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Old 06-02-2016, 07:35 AM
 
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Originally Posted by adele115 View Post
It somewhat baffles me that the business upside of having the strongest system possible doesn't sway the Governor and legislature to dial back the "gutting". Texas, MN, FL and MI are examples of states reinvesting in higher ed to spur further economic development. Companies like Epic wouldn't be in Madison were it not for the university.
They don't care about white collar tech companies. Those educated people are usually liberal, therefore the enemy.

They want old school stuff, like factories that make furniture or motors, and trucking. You know, jobs for real men that vote republican.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
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Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
They don't care about white collar tech companies. Those educated people are usually liberal, therefore the enemy.

They want old school stuff, like factories that make furniture or motors, and trucking. You know, jobs for real men that vote republican.
They don't care about that, either, since it is those same guys who came up with NAFTA and sent working class, blue collar jobs to other countries.
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I work for a community college, not a university, but the principles at work operate similarly.

Those of you advocating cuts to the university system will not get what you want. You think this is going to cut those elitist liberal professors down a peg? LOL, no. Yeah they may have pay $100 more per month on their health insurance, big whoop. Keep in mind that most universities operate on a majority part-time teaching model. The tenured professors are kind of like the foremen in a construction firm. They've got the full time job and they manage all the day laborers brought in to do the grunt work when things pick up and there are more jobs to get done. There is only one of them per "team" and their numbers remain constant for the most part. Almost all universities already operate as lean as possible when it comes to the tenured and tenure-track profs. However, their proportional numbers compared to volume of students has quite significantly remained steady or even dropped

Like every business out there, the productivity of tenured profs has skyrocketed. They write more books and more articles than ever before. In my discipline (history), I'm continually amazed at the quantity and quality of work coming from younger professors. They are doing almost double what their predecessors from previous generations were in part because technology enables access to data in a way not possible in the last generation but also because U.S. News and Princeton Review rankings are driven partly by a peer reputation score, creating a kind of research arms race. A drop of ONE spot in U.S. news rankings has profound effects in student recruitment, so you will always have a corps of tenured faculty who mostly research to maintain that score. The top 20 schools in the U.S. News rankings are the only ones where quality of academics actually drive recruitment (sales, if you will).

No, this is the kind of thing that happens in response to these cuts:
1) Fewer classes offered. First to be cut will be those day laborers (adjuncts). That means fewer classes offered at fewer times.
2) Increased class sizes.
3) Higher tuition and/or fees
4) Cuts or elimination of small programs. Your kid likes chess? Sorry, no money for the chess club. You have a daughter that likes to play golf? Sorry, there's only money for equipment for 15 female golfers and your daughter was the 16th applicant - men's sports are the ones that bring in money (unless you've got a 'name' women's program like UConn or Baylor). Sometimes even foundational subjects - pure, theoretical arts and sciences like mathematics, physics, philosophy, will see cuts because they are not "sexy" and don't have dynamic enrollment numbers.

You will NOT see reduction in things like new buildings. You know why schools build big fancy buildings and put climbing walls in? It's not because of vanity. It's because of market research. I've seen it. Prospective students and their parents respond to those kinds of visible items. We know exactly what sons (sports, athletic amenities like the gyms), daughters (apartment style living accommodations), mothers (dining halls, community centers, also accomodations) and fathers (computer labs, impressive infrastructure) respond to. They don't respond to quality of teaching faculty. No.

Administration will find money for those kinds of infrastructure projects until the last dime is gone. They would have students who just passed a class working as TAs for your kids' class in the next section so they could pay half of what they currently pay to graduate student TAs in order to safeguard money for the next upgrade to the Business Center. The reason for that is because that's what YOU - prospective students and paying parents - respond to. Only the very top universities truly have an ROI on their academics. For most schools, we've done extensive research that things like the quality of the Saturday morning tailgates, student life infrastructure, an impressive lobby in the business school building - that is what really makes people choose University of Wisconsin over University of Illinois when push really comes to shove. I should know because I did some work doing that kind of research while I was searching for a full-time professor job. It's an even more pronounced phenomenon for non-flagship schools. Then the quality of amenities really comes into play. At the flagship level there is still some competition over academic reputation but not that much.

So you see, these cuts that you champion will only serve to exacerbate the very problems you decry.
Can someone get this guy a medal? 1000% accurate

Also the private industry no longer cares where your degree is from unless its an Ivy League school which UW Madison is not. The only thing that you are there to work your job to the best of your ability. The real question that should be asked is if UW-Madison is properly preparing students for the real world and it currently is not. There are 27-28 other 4 year college in this state who are also preparing students for the real world. Sad part is most local children do not have access to UW-Madison. If the focus is only on bringing in money and not producing qualified workers that will stay in Wisconsin for longer than 2-3 years then yes they should cut funding to the school, its simple. Change the focus of the campus from only being primarily a research institution and be more effiecent with the way the money is spent there.

Also if younger professors are now able to do more with less effort for a cheaper price well guess what? Welcome to corporate America, Madison isn't some holy ground that is outside of the natural flow of what America is. Its a liberal city surrounded by a burning state.That fire will reach Madison eventually, the rate at which crime has been increasing can easily show that. If you want to keep your elitist community and school the same way it is that's fine. Just do so with less money from the rest of the burning state. They kinda need it more

Last edited by KG21; 06-15-2016 at 03:20 PM..
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KG21 View Post
Can someone get this guy a medal? 1000% accurate

Also the private industry no longer cares where your degree is from unless its an Ivy League school which UW Madison is not. The only thing that you are there to work your job to the best of your ability. The real question that should be asked is if UW-Madison is properly preparing students for the real world and it currently is not.
Sure it is. Most of the degrees awarded at Madison, as at the other UW schools, are in professional disciplines such as business, education, nursing, engineering, and so on. A sizable number of Madison students also study fields (languages, humanities, social sciences, math, etc.) that do not specifically correlate to an exact profession, but provide skills that can be used in a variety of professions.

But don't forget that the UW schools are universities, not tech schools. Their purpose is to educate, not specifically to train. It is important for UW grads to get jobs, but it's at least as important for them to be able to keep their jobs, show leadership in their careers, show intellectual flexibility during job/career changes, etc. Most UW grads are successfully getting this.

And also don't forget that, as important as jobs and careers are, there's more to life than working. An education is an important asset for people who volunteer their time, who travel, and who pursue other activities that go beyond the punch clock.

I can see an argument for reducing the number of campuses in the UW system as the college-age population shrinks, but to change the entire mission of the university in order to create a new tech school just doesn't make sense. Let universities be universities, and let tech schools be tech schools. Both are important, but they have different roles.

Quote:
There are 27-28 other 4 year college in this state who are also preparing students for the real world. Sad part is most local children do not have access to UW-Madison. If the focus is only on bringing in money and not producing qualified workers that will stay in Wisconsin for longer than 2-3 years then yes they should cut funding to the school, its simple. Change the focus of the campus from only being primarily a research institution and be more effiecent with the way the money is spent there.
If you're talking about UW-Madison specifically here, why would you want to convert one of the most successful and money-generating universities in the world (and in the state) and totally dismantle it so that it's more like Stevens Point? That just doesn't make sense. And don't get me wrong: Stevens Point is a great school, but there's a reason Madison, and to some extent UW-Milwaukee, has a great reputation: it's the research. If you take that away from the school, you have something completely different and more low-key. Why not just declare UW-Marinette the flagship and get it over with?

Quote:
Also if younger professors are now able to do more with less effort for a cheaper price well guess what? Welcome to corporate America, Madison isn't some holy ground that is outside of the natural flow of what America is. Its a liberal city surrounded by a burning state.That fire will reach Madison eventually, the rate at which crime has been increasing can easily show that. If you want to keep your elitist community and school the same way it is that's fine. Just do so with less money from the rest of the burning state. They kinda need it more
UW generates much more money for the state than it receives. If you cut investment in UW, you cut the dividends generated to the state. Of course, not all academic units generate funds like this: fields like Political Science, English, History, Philosophy, etc. are not designed to be cash cows. Their purpose is primarily to educate, and research in these fields tends to cost less than in equipment-and-team-heavy fields in the sciences and some professions. But that's learning for you, and that's the university for you.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:54 AM
 
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
UW generates much more money for the state than it receives. If you cut investment in UW, you cut the dividends generated to the state. Of course, not all academic units generate funds like this: fields like Political Science, English, History, Philosophy, etc. are not designed to be cash cows. Their purpose is primarily to educate, and research in these fields tends to cost less than in equipment-and-team-heavy fields in the sciences and some professions. But that's learning for you, and that's the university for you.
This is what confuses me. Why do conservatives hate things that are good investments and actually generate money for the state. Does not compute.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
This is what confuses me. Why do conservatives hate things that are good investments and actually generate money for the state. Does not compute.
Good question--it is confounding. Perhaps (part of) the answer lies in these words from the same poster:

«Welcome to corporate America, Madison isn't some holy ground that is outside of the natural flow of what America is. Its a liberal city surrounded by a burning state.That fire will reach Madison eventually, the rate at which crime has been increasing can easily show that. If you want to keep your elitist community and school the same way it is that's fine. Just do so with less money from the rest of the burning state. They kinda need it more.»

It seems like resentment, pure and simple. Wisconsin is not doing well economically, so the answer is to stick it to the "elitists," especially the "liberal" ones, and show them a thing or two. Make Madison and those silly professors suffer like everyone else-- that'll show 'em!

The poster fails to consider, though, that Madison is one of the few economic bright spots of the state--not simply for its role in taxpayer-funded government jobs, but additionally for its role in medicine, technology, and other growth areas.

There's also the fact that if it weren't for Madison and Milwaukee, the state would be basically Montana or North Dakota, but without the oil. I suppose many people don't much care for the cultural benefits of having a great university system, but they would nonetheless notice the change in the cultural milieu if Wisconsin became more like Montana or North Dakota. But it's so much easier to attack the "elites."

No wonder so many people consider this "flyover" country.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:07 PM
 
36 posts, read 26,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
Sure it is. Most of the degrees awarded at Madison, as at the other UW schools, are in professional disciplines such as business, education, nursing, engineering, and so on. A sizable number of Madison students also study fields (languages, humanities, social sciences, math, etc.) that do not specifically correlate to an exact profession, but provide skills that can be used in a variety of professions.

But don't forget that the UW schools are universities, not tech schools. Their purpose is to educate, not specifically to train. It is important for UW grads to get jobs, but it's at least as important for them to be able to keep their jobs, show leadership in their careers, show intellectual flexibility during job/career changes, etc. Most UW grads are successfully getting this.

And also don't forget that, as important as jobs and careers are, there's more to life than working. An education is an important asset for people who volunteer their time, who travel, and who pursue other activities that go beyond the punch clock.

I can see an argument for reducing the number of campuses in the UW system as the college-age population shrinks, but to change the entire mission of the university in order to create a new tech school just doesn't make sense. Let universities be universities, and let tech schools be tech schools. Both are important, but they have different roles.



If you're talking about UW-Madison specifically here, why would you want to convert one of the most successful and money-generating universities in the world (and in the state) and totally dismantle it so that it's more like Stevens Point? That just doesn't make sense. And don't get me wrong: Stevens Point is a great school, but there's a reason Madison, and to some extent UW-Milwaukee, has a great reputation: it's the research. If you take that away from the school, you have something completely different and more low-key. Why not just declare UW-Marinette the flagship and get it over with?



UW generates much more money for the state than it receives. If you cut investment in UW, you cut the dividends generated to the state. Of course, not all academic units generate funds like this: fields like Political Science, English, History, Philosophy, etc. are not designed to be cash cows. Their purpose is primarily to educate, and research in these fields tends to cost less than in equipment-and-team-heavy fields in the sciences and some professions. But that's learning for you, and that's the university for you.

I completely agree as an entity you cannot compare UW-Madison to the rest of the other 4 year colleges around the Wisconsin general area. However it is the largest school out of the UW-System (also a Big-10 school) and currently graduates the most students out of any of the other schools in the UW-System. Therefore UW-Madison and its graduates have the largest impact of the current economic status of Wisconsin as a whole.

It is also true that UW-Madison is one of the most successful universities in the world in terms of business. UW-Madison's product is highly educated students that are expected to bring new ideas to wherever their life goals take them, be that a job or researching a new medical breakthrough or technology, or settling down with a nice house with a wife and kids. Who cares what you do with your life, the issue is the focus of UW-Madison is seeing it as only a research institution and its more than that. Its different for UW-Milwaukee, geographically that school is centered in the downtown area. Due to this it is not possible for the students, staff, and researchers to ignore the economic issues that Milwaukee currently faces which in a way also means that the students there are focused on the economic issues of the rest of the state. They technically are in the hypothetical "fire" in a way.

The difference is UW-Madison is not in that fire. It generates enough revenue to separate it and the immediate surrounding area out of the socio-economic issues that the rest of the state currently faces. That isnt an issue unless you choose to ignore the rest of the state. Then it becomes a problem for our economy. The simple decision to do business in Chicago instead of Milwaukee instantly becomes an issue when more than one person does it. Its the flow of money from our state to other states, which is the same with highly educated students it becomes a flow of those students of contribute to the economy of Wisconsin from our state to other states. It makes the "fire" that is the economy in our state worse than it is.

I am not bashing UW-Madison by any means but if you change the focus from it being its own entity within the state to it is actually of the "fire" that is our state then those who have graduated from the school may decide to spend their lives helping put out the "fire"

The biggest issue that at the current rate of which Madison is growing if this continues this way both cities will be extremely similar, our wonderful capitalist society has a strange way of making those that make money richer while those that are poor poorer.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
Good question--it is confounding. Perhaps (part of) the answer lies in these words from the same poster:

«Welcome to corporate America, Madison isn't some holy ground that is outside of the natural flow of what America is. Its a liberal city surrounded by a burning state.That fire will reach Madison eventually, the rate at which crime has been increasing can easily show that. If you want to keep your elitist community and school the same way it is that's fine. Just do so with less money from the rest of the burning state. They kinda need it more.»

It seems like resentment, pure and simple. Wisconsin is not doing well economically, so the answer is to stick it to the "elitists," especially the "liberal" ones, and show them a thing or two. Make Madison and those silly professors suffer like everyone else-- that'll show 'em!

The poster fails to consider, though, that Madison is one of the few economic bright spots of the state--not simply for its role in taxpayer-funded government jobs, but additionally for its role in medicine, technology, and other growth areas.

There's also the fact that if it weren't for Madison and Milwaukee, the state would be basically Montana or North Dakota, but without the oil. I suppose many people don't much care for the cultural benefits of having a great university system, but they would nonetheless notice the change in the cultural milieu if Wisconsin became more like Montana or North Dakota. But it's so much easier to attack the "elites."

No wonder so many people consider this "flyover" country.

I honestly do not care about if the area around UW-Madison is liberal or elitist, I care of that area sees itself as separate from the rest of the state. For the simple fact that the money those elitist/liberals spend be it personal, private, or state funded affect the lives of those in the rest of the state.
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
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Originally Posted by KG21 View Post
I am not bashing UW-Madison by any means but if you change the focus from it being its own entity within the state to it is actually of the "fire" that is our state then those who have graduated from the school may decide to spend their lives helping put out the "fire"
It's a good question to ask: To what extent should the flagship, UW-Madison, reflect the state, and to what extent should it be attuned to the state's problems.

In my previous post I alluded to the idea that many of the students and instructors at UW-Madison are in fact "of" the state and eventually give back to it: people in professional disciplines from business, education, etc. are in this way quite similar to the UW students at other campuses. These students may not be experiencing the hardships that many people around the state are experiencing, but education majors still have to do student teaching, business students still do internships, agriculture students are still required to spend some time out in the field, etc.

When you look at students in the more strictly academic fields in sciences, social science, humanities, etc., you will find more insulation from the problems of the state as a whole. But this really is no different from other schools, and it's probably more of an issue with the kids than with Madison itself. After all, most of the students come from comfortable families, and many are from white-collar middle class and upper-middle class environments. Madison merely reflects the safety and affluence of the suburban communities that these students often come from.

Part of the problem, then, is that kids (and adults) living in places like Mequon, Brookfield, New Berlin (suburbs of Milwaukee), Wind Point, Lake Geneva, Delafield, Onalaska, Middleton, Baraboo, Kohler, etc., are fairly insulated from the start. To add to this, Madison draws many students (grad and undergrad) from other states and countries, and many of these people don't stray too far afield from the city and its environs. But Madison draws students from all over the state and from all walks of life, so just as you're able to find privileged suburban fraternity kids as well as car-less students from Indonesia and Taiwan, you're also able to find the kids from Rhinelander, Green Bay, central Milwaukee, Janesville, etc. But you have to dig a little, given the size of the population and other factors. Many of these kids return home occasionally and keep up with things, so I wouldn't worry that they're starting to confuse State St. with the rest of Wisconsin.

As you note, students at UW-Milwaukee have more exposure to the "fire," as you put it, though the campus is located in a rather upscale area of the city's east side, adjacent to one of the city's most affluent suburbs. There's plenty of opportunity for a student there to remain insulated if s/he (and his/her parents) decides to do so. There are also tremendous opportunities for such students to experience the most impoverished communities in the state (nearby blighted neighborhoods)--something that even many "real world" Wisconsinites have not seen for themselves. (Many average Wisconsinites strongly dislike Milwaukee and want nothing to do with it.)

Overall, though UW-Madison skews upper-middle class and takes in a lot of students who are predisposed to upscale, prosperous environments, I wouldn't worry too much: there are plenty of other students from around the state who have unemployed family members, who come from farming or factory families, and who know what hardship looks like. Perhaps it would be good to find ways to expand the horizons of the upper-middle students, but removing the academic array as is, and removing the Greek system and State St. will probably just send more of these students out of state to schools that have those things. Perhaps more work needs to be done to make sure that students are exposed to the real Wisconsin during K-12 years?
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Old 06-16-2016, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
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Originally Posted by KG21 View Post
I honestly do not care about if the area around UW-Madison is liberal or elitist, I care of that area sees itself as separate from the rest of the state. For the simple fact that the money those elitist/liberals spend be it personal, private, or state funded affect the lives of those in the rest of the state.
The area around UW-Madison, separate from but connected to the campus, is a slightly different issue. Like I said in my previous post, you'll find all sorts of insulated and not-so-insulated students milling around, but there are many residents of the city (and its suburbs) who experience a way of life that does not reflect the state's hardships.

A lot of these people have chosen Madison precisely as a refuge away from those problems. It's easier to get a job there than, say, Superior or Manitowoc, so I'm not sure you can blame people for that. It's become the perfect locale for a high concentration of white collar workers, bohemians/artists, and other folks who want to escape the state's woes or wrestle with them in a more congenial environment. Ultimately, I don't see Madison as being unique in this regard-- the residents of suburbs all over the state are generally very insulated from the state's overall problems; most people of all classes in the state have no idea what the most impoverished Blacks, Latinos, Hmong, and Native Americans are experiencing on a daily level. And like you say in a previous post, it isn't like Madison is crime-free: as it grows, it will change and reflect the state's economic realities a little bit more. That's just par for the course. In the meantime, though I'm not a resident of Madison, I think the state is blessed to have such a lovely, vibrant, and worldly place.
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