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Old 09-28-2009, 10:43 PM
 
3,320 posts, read 5,593,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
She was there, but her only evidence is her own biases and perception. You may find that to be compelling evidence, but I don't. And constantly shouting "racism" at every perceived slight doesn't really do much to help the cause of racial harmony.
Really Drover you are reading a lot into this. It seems you have come across a good "issue" to debate and that is your agenda, while I was just trying to be friendly LOL. Let's look at the facts though. Black girl comes from NYC to Madison, WI, a predominantly white city. Would it be shocking to find she may encounter some overt racism? Just because she has reported on her perceptions of the friendly factor of Madison since moving here, doens't mean they are not valid or that she is a person who cries racism at every corner. You have made some broad assumptions on her character.

Last edited by gold*dust1; 09-28-2009 at 10:58 PM..
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,152,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
Really Drover you are reading a lot into this. It seems you have come across a good "issue" to debate and that is your agenda,
Takes two to tango. What's your agenda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
Let's look at the facts though. Black girl comes from NYC to Madison, WI, a predominantly white city. Would it be shocking to find she may encounter some overt racisism?
So far she hasn't recounted any examples. And there are enough black people in Madison that they're not exactly a novelty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
Just because she has reported on her perceptions of the friendly factor of Madison since moving here, doens't mean they are not valid or that she is a person who cries racisim at every corner.
Maybe not at every corner, but in this specific instance she has, along with a generalized accusation that people fear her because of her race. Maybe what they actually fear is that they will be assumed to be racists if they don't treat her with kid gloves, a fear that appears to have some justification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
You have made some broad assumptions on her character.
I've made no assumptions about her character. What I have done is to question her conclusion based on the details she provided on account of there being a huge leap from point A to point B. She, on the other hand, has made an incredibly invidious assumption about her neighbor based on her own perceptions of her neighbor (white + abrasive = racist). And that's an act that you're vigorously defending, so I'm not really moved by your admonition for supposedly making assumptions about her character.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:56 PM
 
3,320 posts, read 5,593,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Takes two to tango. What's your agenda?

My purpose was in finding out what she meant by fearful and to converse in a friendly manner.

So far she hasn't recounted any examples. And there are enough black people in Madison that they're not exactly a novelty.

She did provide an example and I choose to take her at her word on her perception of what she experienced. She went on to further elaborate on her feelings about this persons attitude towards her and provided another example.

Maybe not at every corner, but in this specific instance she has, along with a generalized accusation that people fear her because of her race. Maybe what they actually fear is that they will be assumed to be racists if they don't treat her with kid gloves, a fear that appears to have some justification.

Do define the instance clearly would you? I asked you to before and you didn't. Assumptions, assumptions. Really unless you are in her shoes how would you know for certain?

I've made no assumptions about her character. What I have done is to question her conclusion based on the details she provided on account of there being a huge leap from point A to point B. She, on the other hand, has made an incredibly invidious assumption about her neighbor based on her own perceptions of her neighbor (white + abrasive = racist). And that's an act that you're vigorously defending, so I'm not really moved by your admonition for supposedly making assumptions about her character.
You certainly have made assumptions as well as question her conclusion, of which she's entitled to. You're defending her neighbor of which you know nothing about by implying she couldn't possibly be a racist.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,152,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
My purpose was in finding out what she meant by fearful and to converse in a friendly manner.
That's already done. So what's your agenda in continuing to argue with me? If argumentation supposedly requires an agenda, what's yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
She did provide an example and I choose to take her at her word on her perception of what she experienced. She went on to further elaborate on her feelings about this persons attitude towards her and provided another example.
No, she provided a perceived example. It's not exactly a subtle distinction between "perceived" and "overt." In fact they're pretty much the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
Do define the instance clearly would you? I asked you to before and you didn't. Assumptions, assumptions.
Define the instance clearly? What are you, daft? We're arguing about it right now. I don't know what more I could do short of carving it into your forehead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
Really unless you are in her shoes how would you know for certain?
A bit selective with our standards, aren't we? From me you demand certainty, but from her, a perception backed with not one shred of evidence will suffice. Take your pick -- which standard are you going to use? Or do your standards shift at your convenience?

How does she know "for certain" that her neighbor is racist? The answer is, she doesn't. But that didn't stop her from arriving at that conclusion anyway, and you seem oddly comfortable with her conclusion based on nothing more than perception and assumption even as you demand certainty from me. As for how I know "for certain," I don't. But then, I'm not the one who glibly made a damning judgment about my neighbor with no more evidence than the breathtakingly inadequate "white + abrasive = racist" equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
You certainly have made assumptions. . .
By all means, please to identify them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
. . . as well as question her conclusion, of which she's entitled to.
And I'm entitled to question her conclusion based on the case she presented, and declare it to be a rather ugly conclusion based on the presented evidence, or utter lack thereof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
You're defending her neighbor of which you know nothing about by implying she couldn't possibly be a racist.
Uhm, the only conclusion I've drawn about her neighbor is that she was abrasive. Now you're just making crap up. That's weak.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:04 AM
 
3,320 posts, read 5,593,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
That's already done. So what's your agenda in continuing to argue with me? If argumentation supposedly requires an agenda, what's yours?

Hello you called me out to reply so I did and you don't like it so you characterize it as arguing?! You came into the convo to accuse, as though people wouldn't respond?!

No, she provided a perceived example. It's not exactly a subtle distinction between "perceived" and "overt." In fact they're pretty much the opposite.

Now you're confusing yourself dear boy. We weren't there remember?


Define the instance clearly? What are you, daft? We're arguing about it right now. I don't know what more I could do short of carving it into your forehead.

Still can't define the instance clearly because you wern't there, so threaten me with a carving...whatever trips your trigger!


A bit selective with our standards, aren't we? From me you demand certainty, but from her, a perception backed with not one shred of evidence will suffice. Take your pick -- which standard are you going to use? Or do your standards shift at your convenience?

Same argument with you, different day, get some fresh material. We were coming at this from different angles obviously. You came in with an accusatory tone looking to prove a point.

How does she know "for certain" that her neighbor is racist? The answer is, she doesn't. But that didn't stop her from arriving at that conclusion anyway, and you seem oddly comfortable with her conclusion based on nothing more than perception and assumption even as you demand certainty from me. As for how I know "for certain," I don't. But then, I'm not the one who glibly made a damning judgment about my neighbor with no more evidence than the breathtakingly inadequate "white + abrasive = racist" equation.

How many times do I have to state that I'm choosing to take her at her word before it sinks in for you?

And I'm entitled to question her conclusion based on the case she presented, and declare it to be a rather ugly conclusion based on the presented evidence, or utter lack thereof.

Uhm, the only conclusion I've drawn about her neighbor is that she was abrasive. Now you're just making crap up. That's weak.
I already addressed both of these points of yours which I find "weak" since you weren't there.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,152,881 times
Reputation: 29983
Wow, you have an incredible reading comprehension problem. You accuse me of making threats when no threat was made or even implied, you say I'm defending someone I've made no defense of, you don't know the meaning of "overt," you pretend you can't even identify the specific instance of crying "racism" even as you're arguing the very point, pointing out your shifting standards is an "accusatory tone".... I could go on and on, but unpacking all your nonsense and just plain made-up crap would take more time than it's worth.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:13 AM
 
3,320 posts, read 5,593,806 times
Reputation: 11125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Wow, you have an incredible reading comprehension problem. You accuse me of making threats, you say I'm defending someone I've made no defense of, you don't know the meaning of "overt," you pretend you can't even identify the specific instance of crying "racism" even as you're arguing the very point, pointing out your shifting standards is an "accusatory tone".... I could go on and on, but unpacking all your nonsense and just plain made-up crap would take more time than it's worth.
Blaa blaa and I think the same of you twist twist twist is the name of the game for you...you have responded in the above way countless times to different people. I certainly do know what overt means. You're the one not comprehending the words in front of you, and since you wern't there you can't know.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:16 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,152,881 times
Reputation: 29983
And you claim you're not being argumentative.

Do yourself a favor, and look up the word "overt" so that the next time you use it maybe it will be in context.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:23 AM
 
3,320 posts, read 5,593,806 times
Reputation: 11125
Quote:
Originally Posted by gold*dust1 View Post
Really Drover you are reading a lot into this. It seems you have come across a good "issue" to debate and that is your agenda, while I was just trying to be friendly LOL. Let's look at the facts though. Black girl comes from NYC to Madison, WI, a predominantly white city. Would it be shocking to find she may encounter some overt racism? Just because she has reported on her perceptions of the friendly factor of Madison since moving here, doens't mean they are not valid or that she is a person who cries racism at every corner. You have made some broad assumptions on her character.
Wth is out of context in my sentence???? Remember you wern't there!!! You are the king of arguing and are studying it as a profession but yet you act like it's a dirty word. Pot calling the kettle? So you can make accusations on peoples character but they and everyone else reading it needs to remain silent if they don't agree with your assessment?!
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:40 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,152,881 times
Reputation: 29983
1) I am not studying arguing as a profession. Another example of you making crap up. What's your obsession with this?

2) You claimed she has recounted an overt act of racism. Since you're fond of saying "you weren't there," perhaps it's too obvious to point out that you weren't either. Therefore, we're left to rely on her recollection of events. And even she doesn't claim it was overt racism, nor does her description of events describe an overt act of racism. At worst it describes an overt act of abrasion, which may or may not have been covertly motivated by racism. I don't know if it was, but neither do you and neither does Nala8. She assumes it was. Considering the gravity of such an accusation, I regard it as a particularly invidious assumption given the lack of any evidence to support the conclusion.

Last edited by Drover; 09-29-2009 at 01:49 AM..
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