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To each his or her own. I'm glad you like it in Madison. There was, however, no need for you to be so attacking. We are each entitled to our opinions based on our own experiences. I wish you peace, JLR29. After reading some of your posts, it has become clear to me and to many others in this forum that you are not a happy person. Find your happiness where you find it. You won't find happiness by being hateful and judgmental toward other people. Enough said. You have hijacked this thread and taken it away from the OP's original intentions. The OP wanted to know how to cure his boredom in Madison. I have offered suggestions in this regard, based on what has worked for me. Why not take the focus off of your issues with my posts and offer some constructive advice or suggestions to the OP?
Good Luck to you in NYC. You sound like you'll fit in well there. I am however shocked to hear how obvious it is to you and others in this forum how unhappy I am. I will go get some treatment forthwith.
Good Luck to you in NYC. You sound like you'll fit in well there. I am however shocked to hear how obvious it is to you and others in this forum how unhappy I am. I will go get some treatment forthwith.
I apologize if I hijacked the thread.
Thank you. I've lived in NYC for about fourteen years, and, yes, I do fit in well there--because NYC is radically accepting of diversity. Everyone fits in there--one way or the other. I was here in Madison on a leave of absence, hoping for a permanent move. I am a UW grad who lived in Madison for about six years. I have often returned to Madison for continuing education classes, vacations, and a conference over the years. So, obviously I have never thought of Madison as a horrible place. As I have said, Madison definitely has its charms and has never, ever been boring--at least not to me. Madison has been for me a writer's dream, with always something to observe, to experience, and to express--the good, the bad, the beautiful, and the ugly.
Just as you are shocked at how unhappy you come across in your posts, I am shocked at how you and a few of the others in the forum have misinterpreted my posts. I wouldn't try to speak for you, but in my case I think it's because some people tend to pick up on one or two things and harp on those things to near death, to the exclusion of all else that was written or expressed. It's a kind of tunnel vision.
I hope you are happy here in Madison and that we are wrong about you come across. As for treatment... lol. Such sarcasm... Unhappiness is not a disease. Only you know what you need in that regard. I just hope you will do whatever will make you truly happy and not be so judgmental and attacking in the forum. On my end, I will try to express more of what I do love about Madison, while not taking the blue pill and pretending that everything is hunky-dory.
OP, I apologize for continuing to hijack your thread. I tried to stay on point but felt the need to offer anyone reading this thread the real picture.
I hope some of this was helpful and that by now you've found a way to enjoy your life in Madison.
I can sure relate, Sondra. I was warned though. Meaning I was told how long it would take for people to connect with newcomers here. One of the things I used to love most about Madison has now become one of the things I can most do without: the need for committee work or group consensus on most projects or decisions. This just gets in the way of doing simple things like hosting a poetry reading or open mic, or facilitating a writing group.
Madison still has its charms, especially in the summer. It's just not enough to keep me here. My work is in NYC, and the job market for me as a college English/Humanities professor is wide open for me in NYC. The literary/poetry scene is still incredible. I had so much fun there last weekend--an all night gab fest/catch up time at my favorite diner in the Village, a parade/all-day street party, performing with an improv band at a major poetry cafe, interviewing, networking-- it was very hard coming back to Madison, if only for about six more weeks. The energy there was palpable, and the freedom to just be myself was a blast--liberating.
I won't miss being watched or tailed by the police, or being treated like an alien or intruder by my Downtown neighbors. I won't miss walking into a store on State Street and having the cashier wonder if she should call the police. lol. I will miss my students and colleagues. I will miss the supposedly rough neighborhoods I have had the honor to serve as a community educator, and where I found a real sense of community and welcome. I will miss the beautiful lakes. I will miss the robins, rabbits, and chipmunks. I will miss being able to see the stars at night. I will miss the quiet, especially since I am a writer. Nice to be able to hear my own thoughts, and quietly observe all the life around me. I will miss my usual hangouts. I'm not making any more comparisons. That would not be fair. The key, I think, to what happiness I have found here has to do with sticking to my own niche, gradually attracting likeminded people, and being a regular at certain restaurants and the library--book lover and film lover that I am. Madison is also a great place to take classes or participate in workshops.
I wish people wouldn't criticize so harshly the folks who have not had a great time here. Victim blaming is not useful, imo. I think the OP and others who agree need suggestions not put-downs. Peace, everybody. Remember, to each his or her own.
I, for one would like to hear more about how you were specifically targeted Nala. Nala is a very articulate poster. She has been more than fair and is entitled to her opinion on her experience with Madison, without receiving any backlash for doing so.
I, for one would like to hear more about how you were specifically targeted Nala. Nala is a very articulate poster. She has been more than fair and is entitled to her opinion on her experience with Madison, without receiving any backlash for doing so.
Thanks, gold*dust. I think I'm a pretty fair-minded person. For a Black, middle-class, educated woman whose heart is always--but always--with the community, Madison is a very interesting mixture of all that is beautiful in the world and all that is ugly and uncalled for in the world. Just a few examples of the interplay, along with the specific targeting:
1. Spending a very relaxing Sunday afternoon reading, writing, listening to music, etc. at the very welcoming Ground Zero coffee house, only to be specifically and slowly followed by a police car on the way home. The officers stopped across the street from my apartment and waited for me to open the door and let myself in with my key. I am human, believe it or not, and have been known to misplace new keys. I shudder to think what would have happened if I had lost or forgotten my keys.
2. Walking home one winter night just as a snow storm/blizzard was arriving, after a great evening at work with my students and colleagues. Passing by a bar on East Main with a drunken patron stumbling toward his vehicle. He takes one look at me, has a very strong reaction and yells at me, at the top of his lungs, "Go!" lol. "Go?" What the freak was that supposed to mean anyway? Like what, "Get outta here?" Oh well... Needless to say, I did not walk home my usual way. I took a sharp turn to the right to make the block around, iow to get away from the angry drunk man who was well on his way toward a DWI.
3. Winding through the concert crowd on and around the Capitol Square last Wednesday, only to have some of the folks openly gawk at me--especially this one older woman who literally stopped in her tracks near the Walgreen's to stare at me as I passed by. Let's just say I was definitely not what she expected. A minute or so later, a young police officer gave me a look that could have melted ice, that look that police officers give those they think of as potential troublemakers to make us clear out. To make matters worse, when I went home I wrote a post about my experience in craiglist's rants and raves and received more than one response telling me that this is what Black people should expect because we supposedly commit the majority of the crimes and need to be watched. Wow. A beautiful thing did happen though on the way home. I had a conversation with one of my homeless friends, a longtime Madison resident who fell on hard times and wound up on the streets. He gave me his take on the social dynamics of the folks who converge on the Square for the concerts. He dismissed them as a bunch of conservatives. Looking back I think that's an overgeneralization, but I think it may explain a lot. The folks on craigslist think that these are largely out-of-towners who come to Madison for the concerts to feel "cultured." Ai yai yai... Who knows? All I know is that I never want to walk through that particular crowd again. The cool thing about it though is that this evening, by avoiding the Square on the way home, I wound up at the Cafe Costa Rica and had the most amazing conversation with the owner. (Thanks Tony, aka the Mango Man. Love you! I shall return.)
I know that many people don't like to hear or believe this kind of stuff, or they would like to think that Madison is above all this nonsense. So the tendency is to rationalize or minimize it. Plus this is so petty in comparison to the experiences many of my students in the community have experienced--Black, Latino, Hmong, poor and rural Whites, formerly incarcerated, residents in transitional housing (halfway houses run a lot like prisons), etc. A naturally diverse group with the common goal of making it again in the job market. Many say they are inspired by me. I say that I am the one who is inspired by them. It could definitely be worse, I know. Along with the program curriculum, we also teach each other to be strong, to stay awake and aware, and to find some happiness in this life. Given the group makeup, it might surprise some how much our students learn in this healthy environment and how much joy and laughter there is in the process of learning.
As I have said, so that we don't get it all twisted again, there is much that I love and will miss about Madison. Madison is my alma mater and for years has been one of my favorite places to vacation and take continuing education classes. In many ways, Madison has been for me a great place to learn about all the ups and downs of life, the all too real social dynamics of race or difference, the results of economic injustice, the beauty of life (and nature no less) in the midst of it all, etc.--and to get very clear about who I am and what I want in this life. (Via awesome career counseling and time to reflect.) I say this not because it's an easy place for me but because it challenges me to stand up in positive ways for who I am and what I believe, while also taking in the diverse perspectives of others. Madison continues to be a great place for me to write. ( So much material.) There will always be a place in my heart for this city. I'm just determined not to be a part of the problem by sweeping this dirt under the carpet. I try to have a balanced perspective, and I would rather speak out and risk getting clobbered or silenced than to be in collusion with the forces of discrimination or oppression, those who would intentionally or unintentionally try to rob us of our freedom. Life is too short. Everyone should have the right to enjoy this lovely city.
This weekend I intend to enjoy the Art Fair on the Square and La Fete de Marquette, as I have said. I will meet a few of my friends at both events and maybe make some new friends--art and music lovers like me. But I won't be naive or a hyprocrite about it. There will be those unfortunate moments to deal with or bypass: the staring, the glaring, being treated as an untouchable, comments made by those who have had a few, etc. Oh well... As we say in NYC, I will just keep it moving. No one can stop me from enjoying myself, nonetheless. As always, laissez les bons temps rouler. (Cajun French for let the good times roll.)
Thanks for sharing Nala! I will say there doesn't seem to be a shortage of black police officers in Madison. I had one come up to my door once when our Golden Retriever accidentally got out of our fenced yard and "greeted" some school kids. He just happened to be cruising down our street. The guy almost tore me a new one. Had another involved in a bad car wreck we had (not our fault) and he wasn't that personable...just saying.
So you didn't have these more negative experiences when you went to school here?
At any rate, I'm sorry you met some jerks!
Last edited by gold*dust1; 07-09-2010 at 10:35 AM..
Thanks for sharing Nala! I will say their doesn't seem to be a shortage of black police officers in Madison. I had one come up to my door once when our Golden Retriever accidentally got out of our fenced yard and "greeted" some school kids. He just happened to be cruising down our street. The guy almost tore me a new one. Had another involved in a bad car wreck we had (not our fault) and he wasn't that personable...just saying.
So you didn't have these more negative experiences when you went to school here?
At any rate, I'm sorry you met some jerks!
Yep. Sad to say, the general cultural norm of the power-hungry factions of the law enforcement industry does not exempt any particular race--or gender for that matter. There are some scary women out there too policing our neighborhoods. I am pretty careful with my words. The police officer I had in mind though was a very young White man, but I too have witnessed police officers of all "flavors" wielding their power and being pretty much over the top. I'm not making this a White-Black issue. It's so much deeper than that, especially since many people of color have internalized the oppression and the assumptions that tell them that any person of color is a potential problem. On the positive side of life, my work puts me in touch with the criminal justice system: parole officers, neighborhood police, etc. I have had the pleasure of meeting some real gems who definitely have their hearts in the right place and just want our communities to be safe and all of our young people--regardless of race again--to stay out of trouble.
When I was at UW, I did have a few of these kinds of experiences, especially since my boyfriend and I were an interracial couple. But tensions in Madison around issues of race, economics, cultural differences, language differences, gender, etc. have definitely escalated. I'm glad I am involved in the community. I had a wonderful conversation at the Farmers' Market with a gentleman from Jamaica who has been a university professor for a long time and has witnessed the progression of these changes. He broke it down for me, year by year, decade by decade. What stories he told me. Put it all into perspective.
As for the jerks out there, well... What're ya gonna do? Jerks will be jerks, and jerks are everywhere. Strangely, I think we have something in common. We are all sorry to see Madison changing, but we focus on different aspects of those changes. Some are angry about the diversity seemingly running rampant, especially since so many of Madison's newest residents of color seem to come from some pretty rough and impoverished backgrounds, from Chicago, Milwaukee, Mexico, etc. I'm not going to be naive here. I know this is a problem for many people. Trust me, my eyes are wide open. I work in some pretty dicey communities, and these hard times we are living in seem to have made some people--repeat, some people (the unemployed, the underemployed, and some employers who have seriously regressed in terms of fair hiring practices)--very desperate, lawless, and unaccountable. So sad. Still, the truth of the matter, in spite of media hype, is that most of the people in these neighborhoods are doing just fine and are so hospitable I had to completely drop all my own negative assumptions about Madison, and recognize that in my culture shock I was just hurt, surprised, and disappointed when the bubble broke or the honeymoon was over. I ride the buses on a regular basis, and sometimes I cringe inside when I hear or witness incidents that make me understand why people make so many negative assumptions about all of us. I get it, but I still don't think it's right. Stereotyping and discrimination are just plain wrong, no matter who perpetrates it.
In any case, as my mom (Love you, Mom. R.i.p.) used to often say: "One monkey don't stop no show." (From an old song, circa the sixties). Right on.
Love dialoguing with you gold*dust. Now let's get out there and have some fun. A beautiful weekend in Mad City awaits us all.
Beautifully said Nala and you haven't heard the last of me
Yes I had a very female officer ticket me for a traffic violation that most would let go with a warning It was truly an honest mistake on my part. Some get off on the power trip! Raised my insurance at the time too! That one makes me remember I had another male black officer let me go with a short and sweet warning when he pulled me over for speeding on Monona Drive.
Beautifully said Nala and you haven't heard the last of me
Yes I had a very female officer ticket me for a traffic violation that most would let go with a warning It was truly an honest mistake on my part. Some get off on the power trip! Raised my insurance at the time too! That one makes me remember I had another male black officer let me go with a short and sweet warning when he pulled me over for speeding on Monona Drive.
Enjoy your weekend!
Thanks again, gold*dust1. As I have said, I don't think everything is about race. Perhaps this kind of stuff is more about the fear of differences, the fear of change, control issues, narcissism, and/or the quest for a false sense of power. Who the heck knows? I am sick to death of psychoanalyzing the jerk factor out there. Thinking about them too much is like being in a dark and dangerous alley way (in your own mind) for far too long when there is so much more of the neighborhood, the city, and the whole world, for that matter, to explore. At best, folks on a negative trip or a power trip make for good poetry. Great material for poetry, song lyrics, and standup comedy. lol. Better yet, let's let them inspire us to be at our best and to keep the focus on how to make things better for everyone. I need some new material. I want to keep my mind, eyes, and ears open to the folks out here who are all about positive change. The last chapter of my poetry manuscript is entitled "Via Transformativa." Don't make me start quoting Gandhi here. "Be the change..." Enough said.
Anyway. Looks like it's going to be a fantastic weekend here in Mad City.
Stay in touch. You rock. Have a great weekend.
I hope everyone will have a great weekend. It's going to be beautiful.
I can relate to your experience too Nala. I don't have the typical preppy, upper class look like many people in Madison, so I get the feeling like I'm on the outside looking in a lot. That translates to people assuming I'm not from here or I just am stereotpyed or labeled or "watched" or even stared at as well.
Now, here is the thing. This does go on in Madison, but it goes on EVERYWHERE as well. Police officers do profile, and it's even "legal", just look at Arizona. People do have stereotypes here, Madison isn't above that, but who thinks anyplace is? My issue is when people single Madison out as being specifically intolerant when in reality it isn't "that" bad here, just the same as everywhere except for one thing: the percentage of the population that is very similar in their beliefs, style, culture, etc is very predominant and the minority population here are very small in comparison and has much less of a voice or influence in the community. It is far worse in other places, for instance, Arizona, where there is an open and hostile climate towards certain people. Same goes for other places. It also happens here, but to a lesser extent. So for me, being in Madison and experiencing minor things are not big deal. That is life if you don't fit into the predominant mold wherever you go and you accept it and brush the minutia off your shoulder, and fortunately, most of it in Madison is minutia and people that just don't have contact with people that are different from themselves.
I have heard the same stuff you and I complain about Nala from many people in Madison, especially people who aren't from here, so it is not a perceived problem, rather a very real one *if* you don't fit into the typical All American mold. Not that you can't be happy here if you don't, just that you may feel like the outsider and will have to go the extra mile to break the ice and knock down stereotypes and walls that people will have.
But like I said, this goes not only for Madison but almost any area that is a small city or large town outside of a major metropolitan area.
With all that said, Madison is MUCH more diverse and cultured now then when I was a kid growing up here, it has gotten a lot better, so imagine how it was 15 or 20 years ago!
I can relate to your experience too Nala. I don't have the typical preppy, upper class look like many people in Madison, so I get the feeling like I'm on the outside looking in a lot. That translates to people assuming I'm not from here or I just am stereotpyed or labeled or "watched" or even stared at as well.
Now, here is the thing. This does go on in Madison, but it goes on EVERYWHERE as well. Police officers do profile, and it's even "legal", just look at Arizona. People do have stereotypes here, Madison isn't above that, but who thinks anyplace is? My issue is when people single Madison out as being specifically intolerant when in reality it isn't "that" bad here, just the same as everywhere except for one thing: the percentage of the population that is very similar in their beliefs, style, culture, etc is very predominant and the minority population here are very small in comparison and has much less of a voice or influence in the community. It is far worse in other places, for instance, Arizona, where there is an open and hostile climate towards certain people. Same goes for other places. It also happens here, but to a lesser extent. So for me, being in Madison and experiencing minor things are not big deal. That is life if you don't fit into the predominant mold wherever you go and you accept it and brush the minutia off your shoulder, and fortunately, most of it in Madison is minutia and people that just don't have contact with people that are different from themselves.
I have heard the same stuff you and I complain about Nala from many people in Madison, especially people who aren't from here, so it is not a perceived problem, rather a very real one *if* you don't fit into the typical All American mold. Not that you can't be happy here if you don't, just that you may feel like the outsider and will have to go the extra mile to break the ice and knock down stereotypes and walls that people will have.
But like I said, this goes not only for Madison but almost any area that is a small city or large town outside of a major metropolitan area.
With all that said, Madison is MUCH more diverse and cultured now then when I was a kid growing up here, it has gotten a lot better, so imagine how it was 15 or 20 years ago!
Nice post, Chelito. I agree with you. This goes on everywhere, to one degree or another. One has to take the good with the bad and look at the bigger picture. So true. At the Art Fair on the Square, for instance, I did notice that within that one big lovely crowd of people, most of us were really out there to enjoy the art, music, food, etc. Going to the Fair with very few expectations was a blast. At one point, I was standing and then sitting out on MLK listening to this incredible band (who I must google), dancing a little or keeping time, eating Chinese chicken on a stick and fried rice, and watching the crowd. Awesome. The few "incidents" I experienced or noticed stood out like sore thumbs. Interesting that for the most part these were women staring, glaring, or just being obnoxious. So much more going on here than the usual racial stuff. I wonder if anyone has ever done a gender-based analysis. Could have been more of a "mean girl" female competition kind of cattiness going on, mixed in with racial discrimination. Who knows? It's just so weird the way some women feel the need to nitpick and put down other women. I'm "ok" looking--lol--but definitely not a threat. I am off-beat enough though to give some people plenty of reasons to misbehave. lol. Much older people, understandably, also seemed to be struggling. They at least tend to be classy or mature about it. The word tolerant comes to mind.
I am finding, as I did today, that I can disarm most people with a smile or just by chatting with them, speaking up for myself, or making them laugh. Don't always want to do that though, but at times it is fun to be that rule-breaker or positive agent for social change. At other times it is best just to be myself and let people be themselves and hope that we will all figure it out in enough time for us all to just enjoy the art and the music--literally and metaphorically--without the nonsense.
I do think though that these situations wouldn't stand out quite so much if the majority of Madisonians wouldn't describe the city as being liberal, progressive, or diverse. Perhaps it depends on where you come from or how things have been in the past or in surrounding areas. When I hear these words a very different picture or lifestyle comes to mind. Berkeley and Ithaca come to mind--and even these cities of course have their issues. I don't expect perfection. It's gotten so that in order to experience Madison for myself and enjoy it more, I have to stop listening to the hype, which only leads to disappointment. Not just in Madison, but everywhere. I travel quite a bit. The truth is always easier to accept, imo. As I was on my way back home this afternoon, I found myself thinking how important it is to let go of all expectations or preconceptions.
Last edited by Nala8; 07-10-2010 at 04:14 PM..
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But I won't be naive or a hyprocrite about it. There will be those unfortunate moments to deal with or bypass: the staring, the glaring, being treated as an untouchable, comments made by those who have had a few, etc. Oh well... As we say in NYC, I will just keep it moving. No one can stop me from enjoying myself, nonetheless. As always, laissez les bons temps rouler. (Cajun French for let the good times roll.)
and you haven't heard the last of me
female officer ticket me for a traffic violation that most would let go with a warning
It was truly an honest mistake on my part. Some get off on the power trip! Raised my insurance at the time too! That one makes me remember I had another male black officer let me go with a short and sweet warning when he pulled me over for speeding on Monona Drive.
Enough said.
