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No matter what yeast you use, you will get a variety of alcohols, including fusels. If you drink the resulting product as is (around 5% ABV) it is unlikely you would be able to drink enough to hurt you.
However, applejack, as traditionally made is frozen, drawn off, refrozen and drawn off. This is usually done a number of times as the temperature drops, and as noted, concentrates the alcohols which will do you harm. Drinking too much of this concentration, which is easily done, can cause anything from nasty hangovers (which traditional applejack is known for) to blindness and death.
Distilling, using heat, allows you to draw off the 'bad' alcohols...if you know what you are doing. Each of the different alcohols vaporizes at a different temperature. By careful control of temperature you can extract the 'bad' alcohols. Your higher quality hard liquors may go through the distillation process 3 to 7 times in order to more effectively reduce the 'bad' alcohols (which is why they cost so much more than 'cheap' booze, which can *also* give you a nasty hangover).
Unfortunately, most of the backyard distillers have neither the equipment nor the appropriate knowledge to run the process effectively, and the resulting product likely *still* contains 'bad' alcohols. There are many stories about disastrous effects from drinking "white lightning". This is one of the main reasons that home distilling is illegal (the other being the enormous tax revenues obtained by controlling the distillation of liquor).
No matter what yeast you use, you will get a variety of alcohols, including fusels. If you drink the resulting product as is (around 5% ABV) it is unlikely you would be able to drink enough to hurt you.
However, applejack, as traditionally made is frozen, drawn off, refrozen and drawn off. This is usually done a number of times as the temperature drops, and as noted, concentrates the alcohols which will do you harm. Drinking too much of this concentration, which is easily done, can cause anything from nasty hangovers (which traditional applejack is known for) to blindness and death.
Distilling, using heat, allows you to draw off the 'bad' alcohols...if you know what you are doing. Each of the different alcohols vaporizes at a different temperature. By careful control of temperature you can extract the 'bad' alcohols. Your higher quality hard liquors may go through the distillation process 3 to 7 times in order to more effectively reduce the 'bad' alcohols (which is why they cost so much more than 'cheap' booze, which can *also* give you a nasty hangover).
Unfortunately, most of the backyard distillers have neither the equipment nor the appropriate knowledge to run the process effectively, and the resulting product likely *still* contains 'bad' alcohols. There are many stories about disastrous effects from drinking "white lightning". This is one of the main reasons that home distilling is illegal (the other being the enormous tax revenues obtained by controlling the distillation of liquor).
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this point as well. A bottom fermenting champagne yeast will drastically cut down on the fusels, phenols and ethanols produced in the fermentation of un-pasteurized cider. I know a man in Winthrop who made hard cider professionally for public comsumption for many years. He had no trouble with higher alcohols in his finished product. You have to cold filter the cider before innoculating it with the champagne yeast, cold ferment it, go through at least a tertiary racking to remove sediments and suspended particulates, and a final filtering, but the end result does not contain higher alcohols of off flavors. He also made a naturally sparkling cider by dosing bottles with fermenting cider and allowing it time for bottle fermentation. There are a number of processes. There is an ICE wine process and ice cider process which concentrates the alcohol without distilling. If the cider was properly fermented to begin with the concentrated alcohol naturally has no higher alcohols present and distilling is not necessary.
More than one way to skin a cat as it were.
All I know about apple cider: Before I became a tea-totaller, I could drink a lot of alcohol without feeling much effect. There was a guy in our neighborhood who was famous for his homemade cider, which was supposed to be highly intoxicating.
The first (and only) time I drank his apple cider, I tossed down a couple of tumblers full with no fear whatsoever, and sure enough I was fine - mind clear, no particular drunken feeling at all. UNTIL I WENT TO STAND UP. The world turned upside down and as I recall I had to be supported to the car by two people.
I don't remember a bad hangover but that doesn't mean I didn't have one. This was years ago, and you do tend to block out the painful memories.
After that I stuck to apple juice.
Carol
Last edited by wishiniwashere; 09-16-2010 at 10:09 PM..
Reason: OCD
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this point as well. A bottom fermenting champagne yeast will drastically cut down on the fusels, phenols and ethanols produced in the fermentation of un-pasteurized cider. I know a man in Winthrop who made hard cider professionally for public comsumption for many years. He had no trouble with higher alcohols in his finished product. You have to cold filter the cider before innoculating it with the champagne yeast, cold ferment it, go through at least a tertiary racking to remove sediments and suspended particulates, and a final filtering, but the end result does not contain higher alcohols of off flavors. He also made a naturally sparkling cider by dosing bottles with fermenting cider and allowing it time for bottle fermentation. There are a number of processes. There is an ICE wine process and ice cider process which concentrates the alcohol without distilling. If the cider was properly fermented to begin with the concentrated alcohol naturally has no higher alcohols present and distilling is not necessary.
More than one way to skin a cat as it were.
I'm not saying that distilling is *necessary* for an ordinary hard cider product to remove the undesired alcohols that might affect taste. You are right that yeast selection and ferment temperature will control that (which you don't need me to tell you, IIRC you have some brewing experience as well...probably more than I do), and I'm not talking about the iced* wine/cider process which slightly raises alcohol content.
I'm talking about the intentional concentration of alcohol to produce a liquor of around 80 proof or higher. I don't have sufficient knowledge to speak to the degree of difference between one yeast and another as far as how much of the undesired alcohols each will produce, but I'm pretty sure that you will get *some* no matter what yeast you use and they can be dangerous when highly concentrated by either the sequential freezing/refreezing process available in colder climates or by home distillers using a pot still or fractionation column. People attempting this [illegal] process should be aware of the dangers.
I always pasteurize. I'd rather select my yeast than go with whatever happens to be floating around. I don't think there are many who choose to go with wild yeast except for those producing certain types of Belgian style ales of which that is a hallmark and desired characteristic.
*(Noting the difference between this 'iced' process and a true Eiswein produced by waiting to harvest the grapes just at the point of frost in order to produce a very sweet (and expensive) desert wine.)
All I know about apple cider: Before I became a tea-totaller, I could drink a lot of alcohol without feeling much effect. There was a guy in our neighborhood who was famous for his homemade cider, which was supposed to be highly intoxicating.
The first (and only) time I drank his apple cider, I tossed down a couple of tumblers full with no fear whatsoever, and sure enough I was fine - mind clear, no particular drunken feeling at all. UNTIL I WENT TO STAND UP. The world turned upside down and as I recall I had to be supported to the car by two people.
I don't remember a bad hangover but that doesn't mean I didn't have one. This was years ago, and you do tend to block out the painful memories.
After that I stuck to apple juice.
Carol
LOL, there are a few people who have had that experience with my brews, which generally range from about 9% to 21% ABV. I usually warn them to be careful but they say "Gee, it tasted so good it didn't seem like it was that strong."
I'm not saying that distilling is *necessary* for an ordinary hard cider product to remove the undesired alcohols that might affect taste. You are right that yeast selection and ferment temperature will control that (which you don't need me to tell you, IIRC you have some brewing experience as well...probably more than I do), and I'm not talking about the iced* wine/cider process which slightly raises alcohol content.
I'm talking about the intentional concentration of alcohol to produce a liquor of around 80 proof or higher. I don't have sufficient knowledge to speak to the degree of difference between one yeast and another as far as how much of the undesired alcohols each will produce, but I'm pretty sure that you will get *some* no matter what yeast you use and they can be dangerous when highly concentrated by either the sequential freezing/refreezing process available in colder climates or by home distillers using a pot still or fractionation column. People attempting this [illegal] process should be aware of the dangers.
I always pasteurize. I'd rather select my yeast than go with whatever happens to be floating around. I don't think there are many who choose to go with wild yeast except for those producing certain types of Belgian style ales of which that is a hallmark and desired characteristic.
*(Noting the difference between this 'iced' process and a true Eiswein produced by waiting to harvest the grapes just at the point of frost in order to produce a very sweet (and expensive) desert wine.)
Ok I see what you were driving at....sorry for the long retort.
Some traditional processes have been "revamped" for volume sales and high production. I have some Ice Wine from Vermont. They actually let the grapes freeze on the vine before they harvest them and press them frozen. Some of the new age Ice Wines are just wines frozen after fermentation, the concentrated alcohol removed, then reblended into a higher alcohol content.
Either way I guess they're technically Ice Wines though the method you described is most likely the traditional one. It is almost always a sweet desert wine (which doesn't really do it for me). The wine I have here has 15% residual sugar by weight and you're correct they don't give it away!
Just over 50 years ago we used to make hard cider. We froze it and drew off the unfrozen nectar. We had no hydrometers and no means to measure the effectiveness except by imbibing. We had sense enough not to drive after drinking our "hard cider". When the room tipped enough we found it was safer to crawl or at least lean on the wall. We put a grain bag in the cider press because we got fewer solids in the cider. We also put some maple syrup in the barrel because we figured the extra sugar would help things along. We were not nearly as scientific as Zymer, but we sure had a good time.
Just over 50 years ago we used to make hard cider. We froze it and drew off the unfrozen nectar. We had no hydrometers and no means to measure the effectiveness except by imbibing. We had sense enough not to drive after drinking our "hard cider". When the room tipped enough we found it was safer to crawl or at least lean on the wall. We put a grain bag in the cider press because we got fewer solids in the cider. We also put some maple syrup in the barrel because we figured the extra sugar would help things along. We were not nearly as scientific as Zymer, but we sure had a good time.
Ya, what he said. (Talking from a ten year stint of inebriation.)
The world turned upside down and as I recall I had to be supported to the car by two people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man
We had sense enough not to drive after drinking our "hard cider". When the room tipped enough we found it was safer to crawl or at least lean on the wall.
Just to clarify: after my inebriating experience with hard cider, I didn't drive myself, I was driven home safely by (non-drinking) friends.
well- i happened to mention to a neighbor that i wanted to try to make a cider press and it turns out he has one, commercial size. he is going away for the week, but when he comes back he said we can pick a bunch of apples and he will take us up and we can press them. he also said if i want to try to make a batch or two of hard cider that half the time he ends up with vinegar. so, my next question. if i use an air lock of some type (thinking rubber stopper, tube and bucket of water) should that keep me from getting vinegar?
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