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I'm sure that Cornerguy will take action on this but before he does, I need to comment on your post and how wrong you are - My husband and I were music majors in college, we've both taught music and directed bands, chorale's, choruses and small group music instruction, My husband is a professional musician having played in many musicals and also playing Taps at military funerals. He plays at least 6 brass instruments and he had conducted many bands of all sizes. My son is also a professional musician and band director of 150 piece high school band. One of the larger high schools and a Blue Ribbon school. I have taught music in both private and public schools.
Whatever your father told you may have been true for him, but for a lot of Professional Musicians who are teachers, it's no longer true and I really think that you don't have to be right all the time. A lot of the time, you're wrong and I'm trying to correct you in the nicest terms possible for me.
I stand corrected for now.
My father's experience was in the 60's and 70's, and I would be happy to find that that has changed.
However, if you take the time and energy to train for a music competition, then you are not using that time and energy for music education. You are using it for training for a competition. That has not changed.
Last edited by Cornerguy1; 03-27-2011 at 11:41 PM..
My father's experience was in the 60's and 70's, and I would be happy to find that that has changed.
However, if you take the time and energy to train for a music competition, then you are not using that time and energy for music education. You are using it for training for a competition. That has not changed.
That IS music education. It takes place in public schools, private schools and charter schools. It happens where there is a really good music teacher. That's one of the problems that charter schools think they can fix. Choosing good teachers.
I'm afraid that if we don't correct another thing immediately that perceptions regarding charter schools are going to be further skewed. Charter schools are developed for a variety of reasons, the least of which is to take the CREAM. There are many, many examples of charter schools that do not initially take what some less than professional educators might regard as CREAM, but with the commitment of the teachers, these kids are able to excel. Not every teacher is meant to teach. Charter schools have the ability to chose and *retain* only the best educators for their particular mission.
there are far, far too many success stories to post....
I am appalled that any educator would look at a socio-economic background as a determination of a child's ability and intelligence. You should be ashamed of yourself. If I can find the study I'm thinking of, that was done years ago, which addresses how expectations (and to what EXTENT) an educator directly impacts a student's learning, believe me, I'll post the link.
So, how does this pertain to Maine? Thankfully, we have the benefit of many, many models of successful charter schools throughout the US. I would think that allows for better planning for a community seeking to open a new school.
Last edited by mollysmiles; 03-27-2011 at 02:58 PM..
Reason: deleted THERAFLU
That IS music education. It takes place in public schools, private schools and charter schools. It happens where there is a really good music teacher. That's one of the problems that charter schools think they can fix. Choosing good teachers.
Absolutely!
Competition does not make the weak weaker. Competition makes ALL involved BETTER. It's essential for growth. This certainly applies to students competing, but it absolutely applies to those competing for jobs, OR, competing to *keep* their job, as well. If you're doing your job, and doing it well, within the contract predetermined (I mention this in an earlier post of mine), then as an educator you will have employment. BUT, if you're a mediocre, sub-standard, unmotivated teacher with a BS or Masters in whatever who lacks creativity in the classroom AND doesn't love their job, you'll be gone~ as well you should be, and *would* be in another profession.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy
That IS music education. It takes place in public schools, private schools and charter schools. It happens where there is a really good music teacher. That's one of the problems that charter schools think they can fix. Choosing good teachers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollysmiles
Absolutely!
Competition does not make the weak weaker. Competition makes ALL involved BETTER. It's essential for growth. This certainly applies to students competing, but it absolutely applies to those competing for jobs, OR, competing to *keep* their job, as well. If you're doing your job, and doing it well, within the contract predetermined (I mention this in an earlier post of mine), then as an educator you will have employment. BUT, if you're a mediocre, sub-standard, unmotivated teacher with a BS or Masters in whatever who lacks creativity in the classroom AND doesn't love their job, you'll be gone~ as well you should be, and *would* be in another profession.
How much do I have to spread around before I can rep you two???? Consider it done anyway.
IMO, competition in a normal product producing work setting makes things less expensive, but not necessarily better in quality. Competition causes the workforce to get smaller to do the same amount of work, causes management to look for better prices on the raw materials, and often lowers the quality of the final product. In the workplace of materials productions and service productions, its all about price and features, but mostly price. Education has quite a few different circumstances.
It depends what your applying the compitition formula too.. In education the goal would be the education.... not the costs... Parents would be sending their children where they will get the best education.. and since they are NOT paying for it the cost will not be an issue..
The schools will be motivated to provide the absolute best education with the money provided..
There will always be a cost factor to education.. charter schools, and creating an open market in education circumvents the monopoli that currently exists. And will do MORE to streamline costs and enable US... the consumer to get more for our money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathu
Charter Schools and Private schools can choose who they will take.
you cannot group charter and private.. they are entirely different!
Charter schools can not "choose" who they want. The schools I am familiar with and what I am talking about uses a lottery system.. the one and only advantage might be given siblings an edge so that parents can have their children going to school together... but this has no effect in creating a pool of students who are "cream of the crop"
Again, charter schools are a good start. This is about choices!
Mainegrl, I'll try to address some of your questions below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrl2011
Hi Coaster....I agree with at least some of what you have to say.
Always good to hear!
Quote:
Yes, I am familiar with the "academies" that serve as some of the high schools in Maine as well as the boarding school component. There are also small towns with no high school who have had to pay to send their high school students to a high school in another town. (The new RSU organizations/ consolidation may have eliminated some of that, but that is another topic which I probably need to save for another time and/or another thread.) When towns pay tuition, they are using tax dollars.
You say "Presumably charter schools would receive the same reimbursement existing private schools do for educating public school students." What you say would seem logical, but I wouldn't be surprised if charter schools ended up receiving more funds per student.
Why? Above and beyond the issue of vouchers, which I support wholeheartedly, there's no reason for charter schools to receive more than the usual state-mandated tuition in terms of public funds. As others have posted already, the national experience is that charter schools actually receive less per pupil than public schools.
Quote:
When I used the term private schools, I wasn't referring to Maine's academies. but I understand why you mentioned them. I was thinking of private K-12 schools in existence that are not academies and receive no tax dollar funding; parents pay tuition in order for their children to attend. There's a difference when an "academy" actually serves as a public school in a locality where that is all there is to choose from in the public school arena compared to a private school receiving no tax dollars or a charter school that receives tax dollars.
If you look at John Bapst in Bangor, the school accepts students from towns with school choice and bills the town and tax dollars pay. Their website states that they will accept students from any town in Maine. Then there are the boarding students with fees in excess of $30,000 per year according to their website.
Charter schools typically operate in addition to other public school choices in the same geographic area and, therefore, take tax dollars away from other public schools in the same area.
True, but that's the essence of competition. Charter schools offer a choice. I'll offer a personal example that I cited earlier. One of my children attended an elite private high school in Portland that, despite its reputation, was not challenging her. She chose to attend MSSM for her junior and senior years, as had several other students in previous years. The school responded by adding AP courses and linking with the local university to allow advanced students to take college classes. That school no longer routinely loses students to MSSM because it met the competition. Cony High School in Augusta did almost the same thing and got the same results.
Competition improves the marketplace's offerings, not just for elites, but for everyone, because it forces improvements -- sometimes. Public education in Maine, because of unions, hidebound administrators, and current laws, is very resistant to change in many (not all) cases. My wife was forced out of teaching because she was innovative and successful. She made other teachers and especially her administrators look bad, and they didn't like that.
Another point: All of our children attended private schools, even though at the time my wife was still a public school teacher. An absolutely amazing proportion of their private school classmates were also -- surprise! -- the children of public school teachers. There is a message there, and not a good one.
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Yes, in Maine the academies serve the population in a similar fashion to a public school such as Ellsworth High School or MDI High School or Sumner High School. You have listed some examples of academies. George Stevens Academy in Blue Hill is another. Their fees including room and board for international students is listed as $35,000 on their website. If international students value the education they will receive in a Maine school enough to pay $35,000 per year to attend, wouldn't it be super fantastic if every parent and student who are Maine residents valued the education of Maine's public schools and/or academies whose education is funded by tax payers?
Another thing to consider with regard to charter schools....Let's use Ellsworth as an example. A new high school was built about 10-15 years ago and the new elementary-middle school just recently opened. There is also a vocational high school. With the multimillion dollar investment in schools, why would anyone want to add a charter school in Ellsworth that would take tax dollars away from the existing public schools? The tax payers have already demonstrated their commitment to education through their support of putting millions into new buildings. and no, I'm not saying that new school buildings are more important than the teachers and students and the learning that occurs within a school building.
If a charter school is going to be added to any given town, city, AOS, or RSU, who is going to pay for the construction or who should be responsible for paying for it?
Charter schools do not have access to the same funding sources public schools do. Their money comes solely from tuition. So their buildings come out of that money as well. FWIW, there are a lot of empty school buildings in Maine looking for new occupants. It would be great if towns leased them to new charter schools.
It depends what your applying the compitition formula too.. In education the goal would be the education.... not the costs... Parents would be sending their children where they will get the best education.. and since they are NOT paying for it the cost will not be an issue..
The schools will be motivated to provide the absolute best education with the money provided..
There will always be a cost factor to education.. charter schools, and creating an open market in education circumvents the monopoli that currently exists. And will do MORE to streamline costs and enable US... the consumer to get more for our money.
you cannot group charter and private.. they are entirely different!
Charter schools can not "choose" who they want. The schools I am familiar with and what I am talking about uses a lottery system.. the one and only advantage might be given siblings an edge so that parents can have their children going to school together... but this has no effect in creating a pool of students who are "cream of the crop"
Again, charter schools are a good start. This is about choices!
Apparently.... you don't really understand how education and schools actually work, either from a management point of reference or from the financial end, how teaching in a classroom is actually done, or how much incredible amounts of intervention that has been foisted on these schools by state and federal governments.
In the real world of education, Charter Schools are private schools funded by public money.
Last edited by Cornerguy1; 03-27-2011 at 11:50 PM..
Reason: trollish material removed
Apparently.... you don't really understand how education and schools actually work, either from a management point of reference or from the financial end, how teaching in a classroom is actually done, or how much incredible amounts of intervention that has been foisted on these schools by state and federal governments.
In the real world of education, Charter Schools are private schools funded by public money.
As far as me, no I am not a teacher... but I went to school, I have kids in school, my best friend is a teacher, most of my wifes family are teachers, my sister is a teacher.... I certainly get to hear first hand the other side of the coin....
And franky I dont care.. I know that we have doubled the money spent on education in this country and it has accomplished nothing... My guess would be all it has accomplished is that teachers make more money but the students are still losing..
But for you..
Accusations are easy... where is the substantive knowledge you claim to have?
please educate me!
Tell me how a lottery is any way like a private school that chooses its students?
Tell me how a lottery is going to allow for the charter school to pick the cream of the crop students..
Tell me how a publicly funded charter school is in anyway economically similiar to a privately funded private school?
Because these are the points that I debated with you... so lets stick to these..
Last edited by Cornerguy1; 03-27-2011 at 11:51 PM..
There is no doubt that the public school system in Maine has some serious faults. My husband and I decided long before we had children to send them to a private school. Our oldest is in fourth grade, our five year old in kindergarten, at St. Michael School in Augusta. The entire budget for 2011-2012 at St. Michael is less then Gilbert School (by Sand Hill in Augusta) wants to spend on a new ventilation system. My fourth grader tested better than 99% of all Maine fourth graders in English and Math. She is a full year and a half ahead of fourth graders in the public school system. I would like to think she's exceptionaly bright, but really perhaps, just well educated. The point of my bragging is, why can St. Michael educate our children so well for less that of the public school system. St. Michael accepts children with special needs and educates them as well, without 2-3 ed. techs per child. St. Michael provides all the extras, music, art, foreign languages. All without spending millions of dollars of tax payer money.
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