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I have difficulty believing, that none of you guys learned in school, that oil is a finite resource, produced by extreme climate on Earth millions of years ago ( extreme heat, melting of the glaciers on both Poles, stagnation of the ocean, rotting matter all over the planet, resulting in 4 times more carbon in the atmosphere, as we have now, acid rains)
I estimate, that some of you are at least 50-60 years old, so don't you remember energy crisis of the 70th? When the government rationed the quantity of gas one can purchase? I knew for many years, that oil supplies will peak at the beginning of 21 century and from then on, supplies will be dwindling... I won't be surprised, that oil will cost 20$ a gallon. It is a market economy in action! Simply put it: there is no more oil exist, they can charge whatever they want.
Petroleum is very valuable in use for high tech, medicine, chemistry, research, where you only need small amounts, it is irreplaceable. However, we are, as barbarians use this precious resource to burn in our car, when we go grocery shopping or heat our cardboard houses.
It is , what it is: so called "American" lifestyle we are so proud of, when average family lives in 3000sq ft (poorly build from plywood, often not insulated, unlike most of Europe, which built from stone, brick, the walls of their apartment buildings is 3 ft deep) with over sized wasteful furnaces, has at least 2-3 cars in the garage has done more damage for the whole mankind, than any wars...We propagated this un-sustainable (in the absence of cheap energy) lifestyle by means of Hollywood movies, TV, mass media all over the world. Now China and India jump on this band wagon, spellbound by great American Dream/ Myth. Before, having a bike in China, made them rich in their country, now they want, what Americans still have for now: big wasteful houses, big wasteful cars(with a lot of bills to pay, they do not show it in the movies though...)....
Blah. blah, blah... Europe is better than the US.... Don't preach the econazi mantra please. Americans are wasteful... we already know that. But to make a sweeping generalization that we all drive big vehicles, and live in huge houses with the heat turned up to 80 during the winter, and no insulation in those houses because we just don't/didn't care how much we spent is just wrong. Most do NOT live in 3000 square foot houses, most do NOT have the heat set to 80 during the winter. In fact quite the opposite is true, MOST have insulated the best they can the existing house, have turned down the heat (several make it all winter at 50 and no higher), as well as living in modest houses.
id like to coment more on this sub. but we just keep runing around the barn not geting any where.yes i live in a big house becouse i have 5 kids a wife and a dog i need a big house,yes i drive a big pickup 4door becouse i need it to pull my trailer and haul my fire wood it gets 22 mpg.no one new that gas and oil would get to 5 bucks a gal if they did they would have invested in it.30 yrs ago coca cola was 35ct a bottle and 15ct a can now its crazy 1.65 for a bottle and 1.00 a can.i see a guy whineing yesturday about the $4.09 he paid for his gas but he didnt say any thing about the allmost $6.00 he paid for a pack of cigeretts.or the $4.00 for a gal of milk.its not just oil thats makeing it hard to stay in maine.its the 60 hr a week they put in at work and bring home just enough money to get through to the next week.and they are looking ahead at the winter.mainers spend 6-7 months heating their homes and 5-6 months prepareing to heat their homes for the next winter.not every one makes 10-20 bucks an hour and for those people that dont its going to be harder on them.the fed gov just propt up the morgage companys.hears an idea how about raiseing wages lowering taxes cuting gov. that way people could afford to pay their morgage and heat their homes and we wouldnt have to prop up any one.
Blah. blah, blah... Europe is better than the US.... Don't preach the econazi mantra please. Americans are wasteful... we already know that. But to make a sweeping generalization that we all drive big vehicles, and live in huge houses with the heat turned up to 80 during the winter, and no insulation in those houses because we just don't/didn't care how much we spent is just wrong. Most do NOT live in 3000 square foot houses, most do NOT have the heat set to 80 during the winter. In fact quite the opposite is true, MOST have insulated the best they can the existing house, have turned down the heat (several make it all winter at 50 and no higher), as well as living in modest houses.
Well not better - but certainly better prepared - but that's because of high taxes that have forced people to make changes over the years. People in Europe hate rising prices as much as anyone else, but they have already been forced to make many of the choices that are confronting Americans now.
I know many people will whine about big government, but there should have been a greater degree of preparation for this going on for years. Incentives, campaigns, insulate, insulte, insulate - conserve, conserve, conserve.
Even if this spike passes there will be another. We need to prepare for this so events in the Middle East can't pull America under.
For Maine pellet and wood stoves with oil backup would seem to offer the best long-term heating solution.
Transportation-wise I really think prices need to stay high for the good of us all. It may take five years or more but we'll hopefully get the message that we can use smaller cars for the majority of our journeys.
Some very credible points of view here...makes me think we really are in HUGE trouble in the months and years ahead...
Thank you, Shuffler, excellent link.
this plan is completely in line with what my friend and I were talking today: we figured the high energy costs may bring back small farms and small businesses, catering to a local population, as "big box" stores may loose their " Chinese price appeal" due to high transportation costs. May be, we will be so lucky, that some of us will start producing goods for our consumers here, in the US again. It won't be cheap, but at least our money won't pay for Chinese or Mexican worker's mortgages, but instead, pay for our neighbors mortgages. I did not forget, that this is Maine thread, may be Maine economy will rebound, eventually.
Bring on a horse and buggy, there is nothing wrong with that!
On another note, have any of you guys looked at the map of Iran in the last issue of "National Geographic"'s insert? (The issue is devoted to Iran as a former Persian Empire) The map describes regions of Iran, and points out to the areas, where Iran's oil is located... I'll be curious to see, if any of you have the same thought process, as I have. All of a sudden , it became painfully clear...
Last edited by Cornerguy1; 07-16-2008 at 09:14 PM..
Reason: Read the Terms of Service copyright rules before posting non-original material
I think that some will leave Maine because of their low wage or fixed income. Where? I don't know. It's probably a sad truth.
I still plan on retiring there. My sister and brother just moved back to D-F within the past three years. One is living in the old family house, the other building a new house on our property. My other brother who has always lived in Maine lives in a log cabin there too. We are all committed to our family property in Dover and none of us would abandon a century and a half of family history there. But it is going to be a challenge for all of us. Adapting to the oil prices is the biggest priority along with gasoline and the high prices caused by it.
All my family says that their quality of life is much higher now living in ME compared to living out here in CA, even though it was hard for them to adjust to ME the first full year. Traffic is a thing of the past for them now and just driving a few miles to the store is experiencing hills and views instead of a dozen suburban stop signs. They are more active now and involved with the community. And now that my brother and sister have both been back there for their second and third winter season, the biggest surprise to them after living in California for 20 plus years is their HUGE winter wardrobe now. Out here, all you need is a light winter jacket and a rain coat.
And we are all just normal people with normal underpaying jobs, living in normal Maine homes with the normal types of heat sources. Including driving normal trucks and cars and eating normal food that is grown locally. We support our local community with whatever product or service we need unless we have to go to a despised big box store and stock up because of being poor and prudent.
I only spend a week or two a year there over the past 30 years so what do I know. I do know one thing though, Maine is not for beginners.
If you accept that oil prices are going to stay at this level or higher I would consider super insulating my house and heating with electricity with wood or coal supplement for power outages and extreme cold. I live in New Hampshire and heat with a combination of south facing glass doors collecting a huge amount of solar heat and electric baseboard heat in the bathrooms. We are going to add electric radiant floor heat to the main bath this fall. I do not think the expense and added risk of a wood stove is worth the cost or anxiety. {OK – I am an ex sailor and fire is one of my phobias}.
If I were building new or doing a complete retrofit to an existing structure I would use a ground source heat pump backed up by a closed wood/pellet/hard coal stove [phobia be darned – a backup is needed]. I would also have a backup generator large enough to run the heat pump and the refrigeration. The primary source of energy would be electricity generated at Seabrook or from the wind turbines that are going to be installed all over the east coast. I would also locate a new structure to take advantage of any solar heat I could let into the house.
If I had an existing house and very little money I would start by getting an energy audit from the power company and fixing all the heat leaks with a few bucks of foam and or fiberglass insulation. Heck. I would do this anyway. Just my suggestions.
... We are going to add electric radiant floor heat to the main bath this fall. I do not think the expense and added risk of a wood stove is worth the cost or anxiety. {OK – I am an ex sailor and fire is one of my phobias}.
I disagree with your conclusion.
Get over your phobia. I have fought fires underwater; I have fought flooding casualties and hydraulic leaks. Life happens and does ****, it happens, get over it.
Passive solar is cheap, however few heat sources are cheaper than bio-mass.
Quote:
... If I were building new or doing a complete retrofit to an existing structure I would use a ground source heat pump ...
UOM and others keep making test homes in Maine trying to get heat-pumps to work here.
A half dozen contractors have done them as well, trying to prove they work, to use them as model homes, and to corner the market on building them.
The math simply does not work in this climate.
Listen to 'Hot and cold' with Tom Gozce and Professor Dick Hill.
Quote:
... The primary source of energy would be electricity generated at Seabrook or from the wind turbines that are going to be installed all over the east coast.
I just don't want to put a wood fueled stove in the tinderbox I live in.
Passive solar is indeed cheap. I use mine all winter and shade the windows in the summer.
Is the average ground temp too low for a ground source heat pump? It shouldn’t be that much colder than New Hampshire.
Where do I find "Listen to 'Hot and cold' with Tom Gozce and Professor Dick Hill".
Windmills are likely because they are faster to site and build, but I figure Seabrook Unit 2 is at least a decade away even if we feed the Clamshell Alliance to the lobsters.
IMHO Maine should be rebuilding all the dams and refurbishing the hydropower instead of removing dams so fishermen can play. I may be an old fogie but I think providing energy trumps providing a play station for the affluent.
IMHO Maine should be rebuilding all the dams and refurbishing the hydropower instead of removing dams so fishermen can play. I may be an old fogie but I think providing energy trumps providing a play station for the affluent.
I think conservation trumps everything. Costs nothing, relatively easy to adopt, if not a tad uncomfortable or inconvenient at times.
Funny how technology and cheap energy have 'softened' society to the point that people no longer seem capable of planning and fending for themselves. Less prevalent in Maine, I'm sure...but just the same there are many who can follow what one of our previous energy secretaries said:
“We have only two modes—complacency and panic.”
—James R. Schlesinger, the first energy secretary, in 1977, on the country's approach to energy
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Out here, all you need is a light winter jacket and a rain coat.
