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Depending on what it is about your old furnace that makes you think that it is no longer the best option for you, please do consider, swapping out the burner. Have you considered a 'Waste oil' burner? Or a WVO burner?
Thank you for the welcome.
Our boiler is 40 years old which, of course, is not in and of itself reason enough to replace it. The problem is that this is the third year in a row that the boiler has conked out and cost a couple/few hundred bucks to fix. (Each year a different problem.)
I'm not familiar with waste oil or WVO burners. I will check that out.
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Originally Posted by forest beekeeper
I hope that you realise that you could swap out the old 'furnace' with a 'water-heater'. A 'furnace' is more expensive and may last longer, a 'water-heater' is cheaper and may not last as long. A $250 water-heater that lasts 6 years [$41/year], is still a better deal than a $5,000 furnace that lasts 15 years [$333/year].
I'm not really sure what this means. Are you suggesting I use a hot water heater to run my radiators?
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Originally Posted by BrokenTap
If you don't have a slab there are two ways to get at the floors, from above, or from underneath. If you don't want to rip up the nice new flooring (and who could blame you) you may be able to easily get at them from the basement/crawl space. For the upstairs it may be better to take down the ceiling and install radiant floor. If its wood you may be able to salvage it, but if its drywall you'll get a new ceiling out of thedeal,anddtywall is pretty cheap right now.
Lot of old beams on the ceiling, so it would be quite a trial to do the upstairs. For the first floor, when I say the prior owner put new floors on top of the old floors, I mean that literally: the old floors are still underneath the new ones, so we would have to tear out the old floors from below, which also seems pretty daunting and who knows what we might find.... So, much as I would enjoy radiant floor heating, I don't think it's in the cards.
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Originally Posted by Acadianlion
My suggestion was based on continued use of the radiators that you have. BUT if your radiators are in fact old steam radiators that have been modified years ago for use in a hot water boiler set up, then they might not be particularly efficient at all, and should be replaced. It is common to see old steam radiators in use in older houses.
I did check out the Maritime Geothermal website and maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see any indication that any of their systems could be used to power a hot water radiator system. In case I did miss something, how do you tell whether a hot water radiator has been converted from a steam radiator?
Thanks, everybody. I'm learning lots of interesting things I hadn't picked up other places.
Lot of old beams on the ceiling, so it would be quite a trial to do the upstairs. For the first floor, when I say the prior owner put new floors on top of the old floors, I mean that literally: the old floors are still underneath the new ones, so we would have to tear out the old floors from below, which also seems pretty daunting and who knows what we might find.... So, much as I would enjoy radiant floor heating, I don't think it's in the cards.
I'm not sure you'd have to remove the old flooring, which I doubt would be possible. But, you could simply install the pex tubing underneath, then insulate. You'd have to talk to an expert to get an idea whether the extra mass of the additional flooring would add to or subtract from efficiency, or be neutral.
Or, if you really didn't like the "new" flooring (and had the extra cieling height to spare) you could install a radiant floor *over* the old/new floor. Might be a silly idea...or not. (It would definitely be silly for me, especially in the kitchen, since standard counter heights are already too low.)
.. I'm not familiar with waste oil or WVO burners. I will check that out.
Both of these fuels are available for cheap.
Quote:
... I'm not really sure what this means. Are you suggesting I use a hot water heater to run my radiators?
Yes.
We are using one in our home [2400 sq ft].
I have also seen apartments that use a water-heater to heat them as well.
I bought our current water-heater used, it came out of another house. The landlord was adding two more zones and did not think that Btu output would be enough to heat everything.
It had been heating a 2bdrm house with kitchen, bathroom and living room. He was adding a zone to heat the basement and a zone for the garage.
What I was trying to show: "A $250 water-heater that lasts 6 years [$41/year], is still a better deal than a $5,000 furnace that lasts 15 years [$333/year]."
Is that a cheap water-heater if it costs you $250, will usually last 6 years, so it's annualized cost is $41 per year. A furnace that costs you $5,000 may last 15 years where it's annualized cost would be $333 per year.
Obviously folks do have water-heaters that last 10 years, but some only last 3. And folks sometimes will have a furnace that lasts 50 years, while another furnace will die after 10 years. It is all guess work.
Quote:
... Lot of old beams on the ceiling, so it would be quite a trial to do the upstairs. For the first floor, when I say the prior owner put new floors on top of the old floors, I mean that literally: the old floors are still underneath the new ones, so we would have to tear out the old floors from below, which also seems pretty daunting and who knows what we might find.... So, much as I would enjoy radiant floor heating, I don't think it's in the cards.
Radiant PEX goes on top on the existing floor. PEX tubes are 5/8 inch thick, add your new flooring which might be another 1/2 inch, and the total thickness added onto your existing floor might be an additional 1 and 1/8 inches.
I do not see why you would need to touch the ceiling underneath.
I'm not sure you'd have to remove the old flooring, which I doubt would be possible. But, you could simply install the pex tubing underneath, then insulate. You'd have to talk to an expert to get an idea whether the extra mass of the additional flooring would add to or subtract from efficiency, or be neutral.
Or, if you really didn't like the "new" flooring (and had the extra cieling height to spare) you could install a radiant floor *over* the old/new floor. Might be a silly idea...or not. (It would definitely be silly for me, especially in the kitchen, since standard counter heights are already too low.)
It didn't occur to me that it might be feasible to use the double floor as a thermal mass. That's definitely worth checking out. If it would work, I could just put the upstairs on a different zone and leave the radiators up there.
I do like the new floors downstairs pretty well, so I wouldn't want to tear them out. I definitely have the ceiling height----downstairs, anyway. Not that it has anything to do with this conversation, but it's an interesting thing about this house. The downstairs ceiling height is 9 feet, but the second floor is 7 feet! I've never seen such a big difference in any other old house. And the windows on the second floor are standard size but they start just above the baseboards. It seemed weird when we first looked at the house, but now I like it.
Thanks for clarifying the hot water heater thing, forest beekeeper. Another interesting idea I had not thought of. As for the radiant floor heating, I had always understood that you retro-install radiant floor either by putting it on top of an existing floor or subfloor or by putting it underneath the existing floors, with reflectors. I was talking about the second option when I was talking about the ceiling under the second floor. Putting it on top of the existing floor isn't an option for the second floor given its height. We already can't have tall friends stay in a second floor bedroom!
I hope that you realise that you could swap out the old 'furnace' with a 'water-heater'. A 'furnace' is more expensive and may last longer, a 'water-heater' is cheaper and may not last as long. A $250 water-heater that lasts 6 years [$41/year], is still a better deal than a $5,000 furnace that lasts 15 years [$333/year].
Not hardly. The problem is that a water heater burns at 200,000 btu's. It may be cheaper to purchase, but it is expelling btu's that are just not needed. Its not just making warm water, but making hot water fast, and anytime you do that its burning serious BTU's and btus cost you money.
It took me awhile to figure out that buying a 1500 dollar 80,000 btu boiler would save me money over a 400 dollar 200,000 btu water heater, but in the end I spent the money on the boiler. I think the pay off was less then 3 years over that of a water heater...and will undoubedly far outlast one. You got to figure, for every hour that hot water heater is running, its burning 2.1 gallons of propane. For every hour my boiler runs, its 7/8 of a gallon. That is $2.52 instead of $5.32...for EVERY hour it is running. (based on $2.80 per gallon). That is an incredible waste. Add inflame modulation and the price ratio is higher still.
There is one other problem with a hot water heater as a heat source...its against code to do so. It is not rated for that use, but rather to heat domestic hot water. You would have to install it yourself as a HVAC person won't and then that may lead to home insurance issues.
Water heaters have their place, but heating your home is not one of them.
Not hardly. The problem is that a water heater burns at 200,000 btu's.
With all due respect you mean 40,000Btu.
The burner underneath our water heater is a 40,000Btu burner. That is how much fuel is goes through and how much heat it makes.
We went to Sears and looked at all of their models, different size tanks, different levels of insulation, but they all use the same exact burner [40KBtu].
I spoke with a local appliance repair guy, and even between different manufacturers. Most tank water heaters all use a 40KBtu burner.
The burner underneath our water heater is a 40,000Btu burner. That is how much fuel is goes through and how much heat it makes.
We went to Sears and looked at all of their models, different size tanks, different levels of insulation, but they all use the same exact burner [40KBtu].
I spoke with a local appliance repair guy, and even between different manufacturers. Most tank water heaters all use a 40KBtu burner.
My oil-fired water heater is rated for a max fuel consumption of .6 GPH. It keeps the water scalding hot and I put 5 gal of oil in the tank every 2-3 weeks. (That's just for domestic hot water, not for general heating.)
The burner underneath our water heater is a 40,000Btu burner. That is how much fuel is goes through and how much heat it makes.
We went to Sears and looked at all of their models, different size tanks, different levels of insulation, but they all use the same exact burner [40KBtu].
I spoke with a local appliance repair guy, and even between different manufacturers. Most tank water heaters all use a 40KBtu burner.
I am thinking instant on hot water heaters, but even the stand alone units will be more costly to run, even at 40,000 btus. That is because the way water heaters are built, they are designed to go to full burn or off...no modulation. If you only need to heat your water to 76º to heat your floor, that's all a boiler will put out. 20,000 btus instead of 40,000, but when you need more heat you will have 80,000 btus to do it which again is going to be more effecient then a 40,000 btu unit running non stop to try and keep up. The modulation thing, that is the whole key to energy effeciency...NOT HEATING WATER MORE THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED.
But of course its still against code to install a hot water heater as domestic heat.
My oil-fired water heater is rated for a max fuel consumption of .6 GPH. It keeps the water scalding hot and I put 5 gal of oil in the tank every 2-3 weeks. (That's just for domestic hot water, not for general heating.)
To burn 0.6 gallons of oil per hour that should be rated at 90KBtu.
When we were looking, we only looked at propane water heaters.
Now lately while looking at apartment buildings, we have seen a wide selection of heating methods.
Oil-fired steam boilers;
oil /propane boilers feeding baseboards;
oil /propane water heaters feeding baseboards;
and oil /propane fired air exchangers.
I am thinking instant on hot water heaters, but even the stand alone units will be more costly to run, even at 40,000 btus. That is because the way water heaters are built, they are designed to go to full burn or off...no modulation. If you only need to heat your water to 76º to heat your floor, that's all a boiler will put out. 20,000 btus instead of 40,000, but when you need more heat you will have 80,000 btus to do it which again is going to be more effecient then a 40,000 btu unit running non stop to try and keep up. The modulation thing, that is the whole key to energy effeciency...NOT HEATING WATER MORE THAN WHAT IS REQUIRED.
But of course its still against code to install a hot water heater as domestic heat.
'Instant on' water heaters, do put out a great deal of heat. Instantly they must totally heat the water from 40F up to your desired 110F.
'Domestic hot water' is the term used for kitchen water taps, bathroom faucets, bath and shower, and toilet [if you use heated toilet water].
'Domestic hot water' is traditionally heated using a water heater.
Some water heaters are designed with both domestic outlet, and household heating inlet/outlet. Our water heater has all connections and it's manual shows plumbing diagrams for using the water heater for these purposes.
When you heat a tank of water, you are increasing the temp in the tank. These burners do fire only at full burn, on and off, as the water temp varies between it's high and low bands.
Circulating water through a radiant loop, the water never gets very cold. Not like when the water comes up out of the ground.
So the dynamics are different.
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