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JSN -
Wow – If industry dos not belong here - “Industrial development does NOT belong in non-industrial, populated, residential rural areas” – where does it belong? Only in urban areas? Only somewhere else? Overseas perhaps? Where? Not In Your Back Yard maybe?
The problem with wind power is that it only exists where the wind is. Like at Mars Hill or the Tug Hill Plateau. Or in Nantucket sound. You can build a steam generating plant anywhere but you have to locate wind and water power where the wind and water are located.
I am willing to grant your assertion that some local governments are a corrupt as can be imagined but not all of them are and some actually have the greater good of the community in mind when they make their decisions. Some don’t and should be unelected by the voters and, if their cheating was illegal, tried and jailed. I also agree that some of the business practices are less than ethical. Look at ENRON for example. They took lack of ethics into illegality and went to jail for it.
I am also intrigued by your comments that the wind machines are obsolete? Why would anyone put in obsolete machinery? That does not make sense. Just what do you mean by obsolete? Blade design, speed control, construction materials? Let’s get technical here otherwise your credibility is going to suffer.
Coaster – the nuclear power industry generates a small portion of the low level waste. Most of it comes from the medical industry in the form of slightly radioactive clothing etc from a few medical procedures.
No, the ash pits are not considered a radioactive waste dump and the coal industry does not seem too interested in mentioning what is in their ash. The uranium is pretty much in all coal but in very low concentrations, at or under 1 part per million, but the amount of coal burned is so huge, on the order of 1,000 tons per hour per unit, that even a small amount of Uranium, both U-238 and U-235, are concentrated in the ash. This is a result of having smoke stack treatment to reduce the fly ash emissions. Try the arithmetic – 1,000 tons per hour times 8760 hours per year time 1 part per million times a 40-year life span. The result is quite amazing.
If you have read all my posts on Turbines, you will see that the corporations and dollars are just one of many issues that I beleive should be brought to light. I own a for-profit business, and worked in one of the gluttonous financial industies for years. Obviously I am not against profit, but Capitalism in its present form has become ugly and dangerous. It is just a point to keep in mind, not the only agrument against turbines. Have you seen the reports on all the sub-prime lending? All the evictions? all the foreclousures because the banks decided they would loan ANYONE money, regardless of ablitity to fulfill the monetary obligation? Why did the banks do that? to ensure everyone had a home? To ensure each child had a bed to sleep in? I think not. They did it to fuel their profits, increase their stock prices, inflate their saleries. Now, we as a nation, have a HUGE default rate, have people on the streets, without money or income, with their belongings on the sidewalks. Now, who the heck is going to clean up THIS mess? Countrywide, Washington Mutual, Chase, Citibank? Uh-huh. I offer this an an example of what is happening without checks and balances, without thinking of the consequences before making the gluttonous decisions based on P&L Statements and Annual Reports to Stockholders.
A good rant, with some good points, but what does it have to do with wind power? Are you saying that ALL corporations are evil, or just the ones that formerly employed you?
Corporations are just like people, because at root they are people -- they are motivated by self-interest. We all occasionally do things that benefit ourselves at the expense of the greater good, whether it's throwing trash out the car window or cheating on a spouse or stealing from an employer. That's why we have laws.
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Cheap and ineffective retort-that is not the whole of my opinion, just a small piece. And you may well be fine using turbines that are so ineffecient it is laughable. I would like to wait for the turbine that actually produces what the propaganda says. I would like all the money spent on these pieces of junk to be spent on finding better solutions, shorter, quieter, less disruptive turbines (vertical axis for top of building use perhaps), other alternatives, or maybe giving each taxpayer a subsidy and tax break for getting off the grid- GASP- as you would say, God forbid the baby is weaned off the billion-dollar bottle.
So if I understand your reasoning correctly, we should not have built and distributed telephones until everyone could be equipped with a cellphone built into the mastoid bone of the ear with telepathic dialing. And those early computers? Never should have been sold until everyone could have one that fit on their wrist. Technology is a progression, JSN, and one development leads to another. That was the point I was making about the history of wind turbines. Someday we may have that rooftop vertical-axis unit, but the technology will have to go through stages to get there, just like those first room-sized IBMs led to the PC you're reading this on today.
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I am a NIABY, not a NIMBY. Not In ANYBODY's Back Yard. My opinion is that Industrial development does NOT belong in non-industrial, populated, residential rural areas.
Beyond the fact that wind farms go where the wind is, the concept of wind power as a heavy industry is inaccurate and simply doesn't fit into a post-industrial society. And how can you reconcile isolating wind plants in some remote area away from all humanity with 1) your desire to protect wilderness areas, and 2) your vision of a wind turbine on every roof? A wind turbine that can power a house will have to be fairly large. So on the one hand you don't want them in anyone's back yard and on the other you want them in everyone's back yard. I hope you'll forgive my confusion.
Greg-while I did not go through all my posts on this thread, I can remember using the terms, outdated, ineffecient, beasts, white elephants, and a few other terms (long-winded that I am) I don't think I said obsolete, because today they of course are not. I do think that 10 years from now, when the folks smarter that I have come up with better, friendlier, effecient models, that the current 400+ ft models will be though and that regrets from current supporters will be seen as it will become clear that we jumped the shark with the current models/technology. I think they can and will be smaller, more effecient, less disruptive (requiring less space and clearing) and maybe someday not requiring back-up sub-stations that run 24/7 on fossil fuels. So my issue with the current models involve size, height, sound, space required, and mostly just how ineffecient the are. We all know that the nameplate capicity is a farce. At best, the best turbine in the best spot runs at something like 30% of capicity. I just think, we as a nation and a world can and will do better. I just wish we coulld win the race by being smart, taking our time to build the best vechicle. Not the FIRST vechicle.
And, yes I stand firm on my opinion that just because an area is non-industrial, and has less population than a city is not an excuse to put turbines everywhere. Why? Just because we have more room and "less sophisticated" (as many may say) government, zoning, and residents that might bite at a few thousand/year/turbine. I understand wind is the key, but I want you to know that in NY, many many targeted towns have "nominal" wind. What they do have is mountian ridges, small annual budgets, struggling farms, and disconnected residents (not involved with each other or local gov.) This makes these towns easy targets for the wind salesmen. Just Google Stamford, NY, Merideth, NY, or Cohocton, NY and dig into the info regarding the the turbines. You will quickly see what I am distressed about in temrs of "right place, right reasons." On the other hand, the old Bethlehem Steel site in Lacawanna (sp) just outside of Buffalo is a PERFECT site: condemned site with major polution issues, already an industrial site, residents were FOR the development, lots of wind of the lake. The only issue I have with that development-very inadequate payment to the town-partial pennys to the dollars profit. I think that is unjust, Lac. should get there share of the profits as the host town
and maybe someday not requiring back-up sub-stations that run 24/7 on fossil fuels.
JSN, that's the second reference you've made recently to "back-up substations." Are you talking about the substations that connect the wind farms to the grid, or back-up generating stations that provide power when the wind farms aren't producing enough?
Oh Coaster, I am simply a NIMBY in your eyes and whatever I say now to you is concluded as bunk or a rant. But to answer as short as I can your questions.
You can't really think I am saying all corporations are bad. My opinion is, though, that corporations can be ethical and moral. There are ways of making money other than taking advantage of others. There are ways of making profits without throwing morals and values under the bus. Mind you, I agree that that would require a huge shift in our foundation, but leading by example is a start! And while I worked in the financial industry, an industry plagued with insider knowledge and power and illegal gains, I have no problem with my old company or any other money manager. I just caution "buyer beware" the same principle I appy to the turbines. I think that the sub-prime lending disaster that we are just starting to see is a good example of corporate activity that went un-noticed and unchecked. The laws will do nothing about this.
And I can't beleive that you have "We all occasionally do things that benefit ourselves at the expense of the greater good, whether it's throwing trash out the car window or cheating on a spouse or stealing from an employer" done any of this. I respect you and your knowledge enough to beleive that you are not this type of person. Neither am I. And sadly, the laws and legal system is another area that I have big problems with. We all have seen injustice, we all know that laws don't work so well in many many cases. Lastly, just because the above mentioned and much worse does occur daily, does not mean I or anyone else should accept it. Just because it happens does not mean it is right, or should be allowed to continue
On your second point, you know you are overstating the point I made. You know I know technology evolves. Your telephone and com****r analogy isn't the same thing as a 410ft turbine 1000 ft from your front door when you don't want it and are forced to have it. People choose to put telephones in their homes and telephone lines to their house. People choose to spend a lot of money on a big plastic box that only ran DOS commands. They choose these evolving technologies. People were not told "you MUST by a telelphone and computer or you will be not allowed here anymore" The residents of host towns that are opposed to the turbines have NO choice. They were given no voice and they pay the consequences for someone else's desires. I just think it is very different.
And lastly, home-based power sources. I know you are pretending to be confused. I know you know what I am saying! I stated that I do not think 410ft turbines, with blades tip to tip that have a circumfrence larger than a 747 jet airliner is appropriate for siting close to homes or populated areas. So, I do not think the current turbines are appropriate for anyone's backyard, but please don't manipulate that thought into a statement that I don't agree with any wind-harnessing device. You know that turbines can be smaller and safer, and generate less power. It is because the current technology generates such a small amount of energy relative to their size and requirements that I think that we can do better, find a better more effecient turbine for industrial use. And yes, if a landowner wants to put up their own appropraite sized turbine and solor panels, equipment that does not negatively effect any other residents, I think they should be able to. We fought against industrial turbines but fully supported residential mills to generate private energy. I do believe that landowners should be able to do what they want within local zoning and comprehensive laws on their own property. Big business and personal choice and develpment for personal use are two very different things in my mind. JMHO.
Dispatchable capicity as the wind is intermittent and unreliable. I remember reading testimony from a CA CEO of a Systems Operator that stated "the contribution of wind at peak demand time was less than 5% of total wind installed capicity (sic)" And certainly we all have read many times about the "window" that the turbines can perform in. The right range of wind speed-Just enough, but not too much wind - and how the turbines stress the grids more so because of their intermittnet nature. So, the back-up keeps the feed into the grid more stable, asit ramps up and down to balance what the turbines are or not feeding into the grid.
And yes, if a landowner wants to put up their own appropraite sized turbine and solor panels, equipment that does not negatively effect any other residents, I think they should be able to. We fought against industrial turbines but fully supported residential mills to generate private energy. I do believe that landowners should be able to do what they want within local zoning and comprehensive laws on their own property. Big business and personal choice and develpment for personal use are two very different things in my mind.
So you support the rights of individual private property owners to erect wind turbines on their property for their own use (but not to sell to their neighbors?) but not the right of corporations to do the same on their property, either owned or leased? And who determines "appropriately sized"?
You mentioned in another post that towns should get a share of the profits from wind farms. Do you give your town a share of your profits from your business today for the privilege of operating within its borders? Do you lease your business space from someone else? Do you believe that person should get a percentage of your profits from your business?
BTW, have you ever seen photos of city streets in the early days of the telephone and electricity? Masses of ugly wires strung from millions of wooden poles planted helter skelter blocking sidewalks and streets and intruding on private property. And those old power plants and coal gas plants, my gosh! Bangor is still cleaning up the mess left by the coal gas plant that operated along the river. But building all of that wasn't jumping the shark, it was a necessary step in the development of modern communications and power systems. If we had waited for the development of mechanical switching systems for telephones, rather than building human-operated telephone exchanges, Bell would still be shouting for Mr. Watson through the door rather than over the telephone.
As for the rest of your post, it appears obvious that your opposition is based on emotion and political beliefs rather than facts. That's fine, but I think you should acknowledge where you're coming from in this debate.
And finally: Is it possible, please, for you to drop the condescending tone? Or is it your last defense in a losing argument?
Dispatchable capicity as the wind is intermittent and unreliable. I remember reading testimony from a CA CEO of a Systems Operator that stated "the contribution of wind at peak demand time was less than 5% of total wind installed capicity (sic)" And certainly we all have read many times about the "window" that the turbines can perform in. The right range of wind speed-Just enough, but not too much wind - and how the turbines stress the grids more so because of their intermittnet nature. So, the back-up keeps the feed into the grid more stable, asit ramps up and down to balance what the turbines are or not feeding into the grid.
Thanks for clarifying that. I thought there was some reference to the substation that gathers the wind farm's output and sends it out over the grid.
FWIW, I can't imagine wind power growing big enough that load-leveling generators won't be needed. It's only part of the answer, certainly not all of it.
I never intended to have a tone, we agree to disagree. I probably will never take your words at face value, and no one should ever take mine at face value. I am sure that if we were speaking, either face to face or on the phone, you could hear I don't have a tone and I am just expressing my opinion based on facts, beliefs, interpretation, emotion, experience, research, others' real-life experience and everything else I have in me. If tone is what you hear, I appologize, not my intention. I was raised in a "debater's home" where every conversation was a strong one. But, you may certainly continue to throw pot shots and call me all the names you like. It really does not bother me, and I think it is good for all observing the debate for and against turbines to see how both sides act and feel. I have seen the same thing time and time again among neighbors, at town meetings, in public parks etc. The pattern of the "argument" is always the same.
And I won't bore you with the answers to your last questions as you know the answers: I pay equal taxes to local and school district (most of the taxes)just like the rest of the residents and business owners (a share of my profits and their profits for the privilege of doing business in the town). It is fact that the turbine companies do not pay equal anything. I know you know that. PILOTS are not equal taxes based on land size (acreage) and activity on the land (land use). All my neighbors, business owners, and so forth pay equally based on valuation, land designation, etc. The turbines, outside of Buffalo at Beth. Steel and everywhere else in this state pay relatively nothing to the town through PILOTS, and do not pay taxes on their billions of profits. And the leaseholders do not pay additional taxes because they have leased the land for turbines. Based on their tax bracket, their personal income tax may be higher based on the money they are receiving. So, I think that is an unequal comparision. And beleive me NYS has high high taxes - we all pay through the nose
I also think you know exactly what I am saying regarding industrial turbines at 410 ft, vs. residential at 60 ft or 100 ft. And appropriately sized is determined by the town, not me or you. So, my opinion remains Big business and personal choice and develpment for personal use are two very different things in my mind.
Coaster, we will never agree on industrial turbines as they are today. Maybe we will someday. That is OK with me and I hope you. I will not call you names or twist your words, I respect your opinion! I just don't agree with it. That does not make me think poorly of you or want to disrespect you. I think much in the world is relative and everyone thinks different things are important. This is important to me and many others, and yes in many ways it feels like a struggle to survive. It is close to home for many many thousands. I know this particular issue is not close to your "home" but I do hope that the supporters can someday understand the other side of the coin
PILOTS? I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with the reference. My question about profits wasn't about taxation and land values, but about paying a percentage of profits independent of those values, which seemed to be your suggestion concerning Lackawanna and other cities.
Please don't assume you know what I'm thinking. Chances are you're wrong.
I think each of us has said about all that needs saying. You mentioned earlier about the view from 5,000 feet (figuratively speaking) versus that at ground level. I guess both views are needed, but neither should trump the other. Compared to the damage other energy generation systems have caused (look at the cultural and personal devastation caused by the Three Gorges Dam in China or coal plant pollution here) I consider wind turbines quite benign. If the energy shortages some very smart people are predicting actually materialize, I worry that we'll seize upon far more harmful options as an alternative.
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