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I do have another question for you? How much time have you spent in PA? And how much of that was in Philly? PA is a very....um...different state. To try and pigeonhole it with either its Northern neighbors, or its Southern ones isn't accurate. So, no, PA isn't much like VA, nor is it much like New York. If anything, you head west to find cultures more similar. Again, the linguistic maps reflect this, as Midland speech is a narrow belt on the East Coast, stretching only from PA south of the northern tier counties to just South of D.C. Head west, and this dialect region expands dramatically to the point where most of the rest of country speaks the Midland dialect, hence why "American Standard English" is a Midland dialect. But, but, but on the East coast, only PA, and parts of MD, DE and NJ have Midland dialects; the Northern and Southern dialects have much greater geographic spreads.
You really need to read Albion's Seed. It would help you understand PA better. Until you understand that very odd state, you are going to continue to struggle with this issue.
I also was thinking this. I wasn't sure where to REALLY place PA. PA is just a massive state with so many divides that it's difficult to really place it anywhere (although it is officially part of the northeast).
Pennsylvania is very uhm... not really "northeastern" with respect to most categories. I joke with some of my family that going there to me is like going to the "boonies" but of course, I haven't been EVERYWHERE in PA either.
I am someone who knows more than you do about this topic and can debate it without the personal attacks, snipes, and repeated histrionic threats to stop posting because others dare to disagree.
You obviously missed the point when I called PA "the top of the Upper South," of course PA does not fit this definition any more than it is "the lower part of the North East." Both are hedges, moving the goal posts if you will. I am glad though you see the absurdity of taking a distinct cultural region, like PA, maybe THE most distinct East Coast state in terms of culture, linguistics, and heritage, past and present, and trying to force into another region to fit your argument.
Here is how Philly isn't a "north east" city, but rather a Midland port city.
- It has a Midland dialect that it shares with Baltimore. This dialect stretches nearly to DC, and will likely one day encompass it. By contrast, NYC and Boston have true Northern dialects. All of this is defined by Dr. Labov at UPenn, our common source.
- Going further Philly has a rhotic dialect, meaning speakers don't drop their final "r" on words like car, bar, etc. This is very rare for an East Coast port city. Look north at NYC and Boston, look south to Charleston and Norfolk, and you will see all these cities have dialects where the "r"s are dropped.
What two cities are the exception? You guessed it! Baltimore and Philly maintained an "r-full" dialect in spite of the dialectal pressure that came from trade with port cities in Britain, where the prestige dialects did not transition to non-rhotic until after the Revolution. The best theory on why Baltimore and PA preserved their "r"s was the presence of Germans.....A near diagnostic trait of the Midland region in early America.
- Philly is a row house city, like Baltimore. Everyone so far in these discussion, including you I am pretty sure, has accepted that Philly and Baltimore are more similar to each other than either is to any other city in terms of housing stock and architecture.
- Both Philly and Baltimore have Black populations above 40%. By contrast, your quintessential North East cities NYC, and Boston, stand at 25%.
Pretty much any way you look at it, Philly clades with Baltimore, not with cities to its North. If you won't (really can't) show that Philly is more like NYC than its neighbor to the south, you can't win this argument. All you have accomplished is showing that Baltimore is like Philly. That isn't enough evidence to show that either is a North Eastern city, and even further away from showing all of PA or MD to be North Eastern states.
I do have another question for you? How much time have you spent in PA? And how much of that was in Philly? PA is a very....um...different state. To try and pigeonhole it with either its Northern neighbors, or its Southern ones isn't accurate. So, no, PA isn't much like VA, nor is it much like New York. If anything, you head west to find cultures more similar. Again, the linguistic maps reflect this, as Midland speech is a narrow belt on the East Coast, stretching only from PA south of the northern tier counties to just South of D.C. Head west, and this dialect region expands dramatically to the point where most of the rest of country speaks the Midland dialect, hence why "American Standard English" is a Midland dialect. But, but, but on the East coast, only PA, and parts of MD, DE and NJ have Midland dialects; the Northern and Southern dialects have much greater geographic spreads. Philly also ciades with New York far better than with Richmond as does Baltimore and you know that's true. Again I'm no longer giving you the time of day so consider my dismissal of you as an insult not a compliment. Unless you have an I
You really need to read Albion's Seed. It would help you understand PA better. Until you understand that very odd state, you are going to continue to struggle with this issue.
Lmao Pennsylvania fits in much better with the lower Northeast:l than the Upper South anyone with half a brain could figure that out. you more knowledgable than me? In your dreams. No you're just arrogant. You're nobody. I'm not devoting one more response to you so don't reply back.
Lmao Pennsylvania fits in much better with the lower Northeast:l than the Upper South anyone with half a brain could figure that out. you more knowledgable than me? In your dreams. No you're just arrogant. You're nobody. I'm not devoting one more response to you so don't reply back.
Yes he will, he'll just ignore you for a post or two. Trust me, he's said he'll ignore me soooo many times
I also was thinking this. I wasn't sure where to REALLY place PA. PA is just a massive state with so many divides that it's difficult to really place it anywhere (although it is officially part of the northeast).
Pennsylvania is very uhm... not really "northeastern" with respect to most categories. I joke with some of my family that going there to me is like going to the "boonies" but of course, I haven't been EVERYWHERE in PA either.
Meh, the state is just different really.
Great. Let's take Iowa out of the Midwest while we are at it and also all of Upstate New York out of the northeast which Pennsylvania has the most similarities to besides New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland. No region is a homogenous mixture of states. The Lower Midwest is as different from the Upper Midwest as the Mid Atlantic is from New York, which is a split between Philly and Boston, and New England, yet nobody has nearly as big an issue with the Midwest. This argument is officially too insane.
Lmao Pennsylvania fits in much better with the lower Northeast:l than the Upper South anyone with half a brain could figure that out. you more knowledgable than me? In your dreams. No you're just arrogant. You're nobody. I'm not devoting one more response to you so don't reply back.
You still don't get it. PA is PA. Its own region. PA's closest comp is Northern Maryland, next closest is Ohio. The only exception is the Northern Tier Counties, which clade with the Southern Tier of NY. You can make a decent argument that those counties are "north eastern" due to dialect, which if is a result of initial settlement patterns. Again, you don't have to listen to me, check my source.
Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer
There is that personal attack and yet another promise to not respond. Not to mention another direct question I asked you that you ignored. When you gave me an assignment to show how Philly was not a North Eastern city, I was happy to oblige. If you have game, show it. I like to play.
Could I be so lucky that you are leaving the thread? I doubt it. Every "threat" so far has been empty. I bet you reply to this, but you could really work me over by proving me wrong.
The simple fact that you think that a region can just change over time due to any of those things is silly. I'm simply taking your logic and applying it elsewhere.
But of course, you'll only accept that it has and will only occur (conveniently at that) to the one state that you insist magically moved regions.
Regions don't move without legislation. End. of. Story.
The south will be the south always and the north (and northeast) will be the north always UNTIL there is legislation otherwise,
The north is already defined and the south is also defined.
Above all the ultimate authority in which states belong to which region would be... idk, the United States Government. It is after all, the states of the United States.
Live with it, or petition to change it.
Lmao that is only as silly as day changing to night. it's back to the census bureau now. You're on your last line of defense. What a weak argument. I've already schooled the hell out of you take your lickings and go home. And stay out of my business with other people. You're such a coward. You wouldn't have the balls to say any of what you've said to me in real life anyway before stuffing a sock in your mouth first.
You still don't get it. PA is PA. Its own region. PA's closest comp is Northern Maryland, next closest is Ohio. The only exception is the Northern Tier Counties, which clade with the Southern Tier of NY. You can make a decent argument that those counties are "north eastern" due to dialect, which if is a result of initial settlement patterns. Again, you don't have to listen to me, check my source.
Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer
There is that personal attack and yet another promise to not respond. Not to mention another direct question I asked you that you ignored. When you gave me an assignment to show how Philly was not a North Eastern city, I was happy to oblige. If you have game, show it. I like to play.
Could I be so lucky that you are leaving the thread? I doubt it. Every "threat" so far has been empty. I bet you reply to this, but you could really work me over by proving me wrong.
Buddy I have a life outside of this forum unlike you and have better things to do than debate this. Your opinion of Pennsylvania is just that. An opinion. Pennsylvania is a cross between New York, New Jersey, and Maryland, not its own region. It's your problem if you don't agree with me. We will have to agree to disagree. If that's not good enough for you, oh well. Wolf continues to act like a kid from elementary school and you're more than happy to join in. Don't bother posting because I won't read it.
Buddy I have a life outside of this forum unlike you and have better things to do than debate this. Your opinion of Pennsylvania is just that. An opinion. Pennsylvania is a cross between New York, New Jersey, and Maryland, not its own region. It's your problem if you don't agree with me. We will have to agree to disagree. If that's not good enough for you, oh well. Wolf continues to act like a kid from elementary school and you're more than happy to join in. Both of you can suck it.
Ah, you did respond! So we will tally that as another empty threat. I will also count this as another personal attack. Keep them coming, it how I know I am winning. When you fail to address the points I make, but instead are forced to attempt insults to get your point across, it is a sign of big hat, no cattle.
Seriously, if you have game, play, answer my questions. I didn't dodge yours. You called it arrogance. If arrogance is knowledge, confidence in your opinion, and understanding when to press the advantage, then I fit the bill.
But, again, you don't have better things to do. You will respond to this post too. To not respond would be a compliment to me, as it will mean I accomplished what others couldn't.....getting you to back down.
Ah, you did respond! So we will tally that as another empty threat. I will also count this as another personal attack. Keep them coming, it how I know I am winning. When you fail to address the points I make, but instead are forced to attempt insults to get your point across, it is a sign of big hat, no cattle.
Seriously, if you have game, play, answer my questions. I didn't dodge yours. You called it arrogance. If arrogance is knowledge, confidence in your opinion, and understanding when to press the advantage, then I fit the bill.
But, again, you don't have better things to do. You will respond to this post too. To not respond would be a compliment to me, as it will mean I accomplished what others couldn't.....getting you to back down.
Couldn't resist. I'm not backing down. I'm moving on. You haven't won a damn thing but go on and think you have. You're a coward saying that to me on the internet. You wouldn't have the balls to do it in person and we both know it. My knowledge is arrogance just as much as yours is. Direct message me if you really want to fight over this. I'll be waiting. Let's see who blinks first.
Status:
"48 years in MD, 18 in NC"
(set 11 days ago)
Location: Greenville, NC
2,309 posts, read 6,102,582 times
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You know how you can tell when a ******* is wrong? They start resorting to personal attacks and insults.
Time for this...
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