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Again I agree with some on here that Maryland being Northern or Southern is not a black and white issue. Maryland is Southern, Appalachian, and Northeastern. Maybe if we all agreed to leave it at Mid-Atlantic (Northern Virginia to New York), which it is almost always considered, we wouldn't be having this discussion. (Type in Mid-Atlantic on Google Images and see what I mean ) My stance has always been that, in my opinion, there is more evidence tying Maryland to the Northeast than there is tying it to the South. More importantly it's a unique state with it's own culture.
Yeah, no offense but some of these are uhm, sketchy. Not really in their truth, but how they either separate Maryland from the Northeast or tie it to the South.
1. Ok, but how many Little Italy's are located south of Baltimore? (zero) How many Chinatowns are there south of DC (outside of LA and TX)?
2. Well "KKK base" isn't exactly how I would describe Annapolis. Take a look at this, particularly states in close vicinity such as VA, PA, and NJ: Hate Map | Southern Poverty Law Center
Also I wouldn't be surprised if there were more KKK "bases" per capita in half of the MidWestern states than there are in Maryland.
3. Well I'm a car enthusiast and I guess it's my experience vs yours, but I've seen the exact opposite. In Montgomery and mostly-black PG county (and most other suburban counties, parts of B'more and SE DC may be the different) foreign cars are the norm but I do also see the cars you're talking about (in MD and practically every other state on the East Coast) and I'll take your word for it you think they're exclusive to the South.
4. Yeah well I don't really agree that a line older than the United States is still an accurate border defining different cultural areas.
5. Very subjective. Again, seen it, but far from the norm (including many rural areas in Central and Western MD)
6. Yeah, Pennsylvania also has quite a few Waffle Houses. I don't know how something like swamps make Maryland Southern, and New Jersey certainly has them as well.
7. As for slaves, yep, so did Delaware (which more or less is universally considered Northeastern, but also has it's many Southern attributes), and by the Civil War half the blacks in MD were free with only 90K enslaved, more than I can say for the 500K slaves in Virginia. As for Jim Crow, true, but they got rid of them before than practically every other Southern state (such as it's anti-miscegenation law). Well yeah, Maryland today produces less tobacco than Connecticut (thanks to the state buyout).
8. I assume you're using the urban definition. I don't know about "anywhere" but there probably are less of them for the same reason as your 1.
9. Although few famous rap/hip-hop artists hail from DC-Baltimore it is still considered "East Coast" unlike Southern states is considered "Dirty South" (except for Virginia which can be grouped in either).
I agree with you on DC, which is a very unique city in it's own right (and personally, my favorite), but Baltimore is another story. Baltimore and Philadelphia have pretty similar cultures, as well and looks and feels. Technically Philadelphia is older than Balt., but wasn't really a "city" until the 1700's when Baltimore was formed. For half of the 19th century Baltimore was either larger or the same size as Philadelphia.
I agree with your very first sentence though, since outside of South Florida Southern cities for the most part cover a large land area, aren't very dense, don't have the Chinatowns and Little Italys you see in the NE, and most lack heavily-patronized alternative transit options.
Baltimore has a pop. density of approx 8K/sq. mile (depite huge population losses), DC has a pop. density of almost ~10K/sq. mile. The closest Southern city (outside of South Fla.) is Atlanta with 4K/sq. mile. Practically every major city in the Northeast has a pop. density higher than 5K/sq. mile.
1. Theres one in Louisana. There are little italities in Chicago, Columbus Ohio, Kansas City, and Omaha(Midwest) and some in San Francisco and San Diego(West Coast) has nothing to do with northern lol. And theres a Chinatown in Memphis, Tennesse, Alexandria, Virgina, Orlando and Miami lol where do you come up with this stuff. Umm there a little haiti in Miami also, but the Florida is still a southern state
2. Everybody knows that the KKK has its roots in the south
3.Yea foreign cars are driven everywhere across the United States, but again we're talking about overall culture and the majority of urban blacks in Maryland drive Caprices, Towncars, etc with huge rims clearly a southern thing just like over in Los Angeles people drive foreign cars, but the culture is with the low riders. Catch my drift?
4. Thats a personal opinion and not a fact, however the government which has authority defines regions by the mason dixon line as well as other aspects and clearly put Maryland in the southeast.
5. No not subjective, Marylanders born and raised(not transplants from the north) accents are southern or clearly leaning towards southern as well as the Baltimorese accents.
6. Yea but Maryland outside of the urban areas has more of an old style plantation feel with many swamps and countrified, southern looking areas.
7. Maryland has way more of a tobacco history than Connecticut. It share similar history with Virgina and North Carolina
8. No! There are no bodegas in Baltimore and no puerto rican day parades either
9. No the dirty south in hip hop refers to Georgia, MS, Tennesse, Florida, Alabama, Texas, and South Carolina(half and half). Everything from there up in the urban community is refered to as the Middle East with a mixture of southern and east coast rap but nothing to do with southern history just the rap scenes(style of beats, lyrical context, etc). Most of the rappers that I have heard from Baltimore still sound southern with speech, dialect clearly leaning towards southern with southern elements (donks and high risers, gold teeth, etc.) whereas in the tri state are of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut are clearly east coast to the core.
Now as we can see that an argumnent for Maryland being northern can be said for some other southern states as well. As well as the appalachia argument which streches from NY alway down to Mississippi, but New York is still a northern state and Mississippi is still a southern states. West Virginia is Appalachia, but still clearly a southern state with southern traditons and history. I think the mid atlantic term is just a cop out to not say the state is southern and because saying its a truely northern state is quite laugable so some people call it mid atlantic.
1. Theres one in Louisana. There are little italities in Chicago, Columbus Ohio, Kansas City, and Omaha(Midwest) and some in San Francisco and San Diego(West Coast) has nothing to do with northern lol. And theres a Chinatown in Memphis, Tennesse, Alexandria, Virgina, Orlando and Miami lol where do you come up with this stuff. Umm there a little haiti in Miami also, but the Florida is still a southern state
Naw, Florida's a northern state using CPterp's logic, all the move- ins have changed it.
2. Everybody knows that the KKK has its roots in the south
3.Yea foreign cars are driven everywhere across the United States, but again we're talking about overall culture and the majority of urban blacks in Maryland drive Caprices, Towncars, etc with huge rims clearly a southern thing just like over in Los Angeles people drive foreign cars, but the culture is with the low riders. Catch my drift?
4. Thats a personal opinion and not a fact, however the government which has authority defines regions by the mason dixon line as well as other aspects and clearly put Maryland in the southeast.
5. No not subjective, Marylanders born and raised(not transplants from the north) accents are southern or clearly leaning towards southern as well as the Baltimorese accents.
6. Yea but Maryland outside of the urban areas has more of an old style plantation feel with many swamps and countrified, southern looking areas.
7. Maryland has way more of a tobacco history than Connecticut. It share similar history with Virgina and North Carolina
8. No! There are no bodegas in Baltimore and no puerto rican day parades either
9. No the dirty south in hip hop refers to Georgia, MS, Tennesse, Florida, Alabama, Texas, and South Carolina(half and half). Everything from there up in the urban community is refered to as the Middle East with a mixture of southern and east coast rap but nothing to do with southern history just the rap scenes(style of beats, lyrical context, etc). Most of the rappers that I have heard from Baltimore still sound southern with speech, dialect clearly leaning towards southern with southern elements (donks and high risers, gold teeth, etc.) whereas in the tri state are of New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut are clearly east coast to the core.
Now as we can see that an argumnent for Maryland being northern can be said for some other southern states as well. As well as the appalachia argument which streches from NY alway down to Mississippi, but New York is still a northern state and Mississippi is still a southern states. West Virginia is Appalachia, but still clearly a southern state with southern traditons and history. I think the mid atlantic term is just a cop out to not say the state is southern and because saying its a truely northern state is quite laugable so some people call it mid atlantic.
I can remember almost 50 years ago in elementary school being taught that MD, VA, DE and PA could be called Mid-Atlantic, so this isn't new. Not disagreeing with you but remembering terms used.
I've always wondered over numerous topics if CP has ever been outside the Germantown/College Park/UMD axis, If not, that might explain some of his arguments.
I never liked the Mid-Atlantic designation as a cultural term, because there is really isn't much of a common link between PA, MD, DE, and VA. One can argue they represent a sort of gradient from North to South, but I don't see much that links them all together, with the exceptions of the Appalachian areas.
Mid-Atlantic is a very useful designation for geographers and metreologists. The geography of the states is similar and the climate is too. There is clearly a "Mid-Atlantic" climate that all the states share, last years big snows hitting the region was a good example of this.
Border State is my preferred term for Maryland culturally.
I never liked the Mid-Atlantic designation as a cultural term, because there is really isn't much of a common link between PA, MD, DE, and VA. One can argue they represent a sort of gradient from North to South, but I don't see much that links them all together, with the exceptions of the Appalachian areas.
Mid-Atlantic is a very useful designation for geographers and metreologists. The geography of the states is similar and the climate is too. There is clearly a "Mid-Atlantic" climate that all the states share, last years big snows hitting the region was a good example of this.
Border State is my preferred term for Maryland culturally.
Agreed. The "South" has cultural implications in which a layperson with no formal education whatsoever can begin to identify commonalities in dialect, cuisine, religion, farming practices, manners, music, etc. No one disputes the "South" exists, it is just a matter if it includes Delaware, Maryland, DC, West Virginia, Kentucky, Oklahoma, East Texas, and South Florida.
The "Mid-Atlantic" is useful for the federal government and corporations (remember "Bell Atlantic") but for identifying culture it is completely useless. The Mid-Atlantic can include anywhere from New York to North Carolina; as you indicated above, you are hard-pressed to identify commonalities between PA and Virginia (outside of Appalachia) much less New York and North Carolina. Also, I have never heard anyone refer to a South Atlantic or a North Atlantic. To NBPs defense, I have heard of a "Midland" culture region, but it extends everywhere from Delaware to Kansas.
Hence the Border State definition. I think it is very useful to characterize the regional ambiguity of Delaware, Maryland, DC, West Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Kansas (I think Kansas historically was more southern in 1961 than it was in 1861). But once again it is difficult to find cultural commonalities between Delaware and Missouri outside of the historical distinction of being slave states that didn't secede.
I think when people "holla" about the South, they are really talking about the Atlantic and Gulf Coastal Plains. This spans everywhere from Maryland to Texas and even includes Arkansas, Kentucky, and Tennessee which don't touch the coast but the physiographic province actually extends up the Mississippi River Valley. I honestly don't consider West Virginia the true South. All of the Confederate flag waving, even in the Southern part of the state, is just a bunch of revisionist history and exemplifies a disaffected population trying to identify with a purpose where one only ostensibly exists (if you have ever been to Miami it is like the wealthy Cuban exile population wearing the clothes and eating the foods of the peasants that they would have otherwise fought tooth and nail to distance themselves from in the context of a shared identity). As far as Confederate sympathizers go, Illinois probably had more than what became West Virginia and no one considers "the Land of Lincoln" southern.
So therefore the South doesn't have to include every county in every state. It can be an amorphous blob that covers the contiguous shared culture region of MD, VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, TN, AL, MS, AR, KY, LA, and TX. If Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, West Virginia, and Delaware want to be considered southern then let them make the case of how culturally similar they are to the Low Country of South Carolina (that no one would dispute as Southern); by all means let them try. But once again, a state cannot be discounted from the South just because part of it lies in Appalachia (i.e. Maryland). As I said before, every "Southern" State except Texas and Florida contains a chunk of Appalachia and the Ozarks seem to have an almost identical demographic to Appalachia.
The main population centers around the Ohio River did not, and were the driving force to form the new state. I know Allegany's County's rather insignficant Civil War history includes a small detachment of Federal troops stationed in Cumberland to protect the railroad from Confederate raiders from WV (they also imprisoned some of Cumberland vocal confederate sympathizers.) Other than that, the Union pretty much ignored WV, there wasn't much to fight over.
The main population centers around the Ohio River did not, and were the driving force to form the new state. I know Allegany's County's rather insignficant Civil War history includes a small detachment of Federal troops stationed in Cumberland to protect the railroad from Confederate raiders from WV (they also imprisoned some of Cumberland vocal confederate sympathizers.) Other than that, the Union pretty much ignored WV, there wasn't much to fight over.
Keep in mind, the concept of "Virginia" and "West Virginia" were abstractions for the first two years of the Civil War. West Virginia was "Virginia" until 1863. As traitors to the United States who relinquished their citizenship, a vote for "secession" could be considered dubious. In terms of sentiment, Maryland remained loyal to the Union and contributed 60,000 troops to the U.S. military but also contributed 25,000 troops to the Confederacy. So is it accurate for anyone to fly the Confederate flag in Maryland that never flew in any position of sovereignty within the state?
West Virginia contributed anywhere from 22,000 to 35,000 troops to the Union and somewhere between 7,000 and 19,000 troops to the Confederacy. But the fact that West Virginia was an abstraction makes it difficult to grant any Confederate authenticity to the state. Were the Union troops Pennsylvanians and Ohioans that enlisted in the new WV regiments? Were the Confederate enlistees and secessionist voters for West Virginia really Virginia and Kentucky irredentists?
No one has been able to pinpoint these numbers but the legal status is clear. Of the 39 counties ratified by the Second Wheeling Convention that created "West Virginia", the "39 counties contained a white population of 272,759, 78% of whom had a Unionist orientation." Secessionists tried to ratify a plan that would include 71 counties to include more Confederate leaning voters so the new state would have seceeded anyway. However, a compromise of 50 counties was made, and as determined by history, West Virginia did not secede from the Union and the Confederate flag never flew in a position of sovereignty in the state.
So yes, West Virginia had secessionists but then again, every Confederate State except South Carolina raised Union regiments (one of the reasons why I used South Carolina in my previous post as the archetypical example of a "Southern" state). It is estimated that North Carolina was half Unionist. So as it pertains to Maryland and West Virginia, the Confederate flag never flew in a position of sovereignty over the state. Even Kentucky had a Confederate government (the capital was Bowling Green) over which the Confederate flag flew. But unlike West Virginia, there was no physical split and geographic separation; the two governments were concurrent.
So even if half of North Carolinians were Unionists, it is perfectly acceptable to brandish a Confederate flag because it flew in a position of sovereignty (but lucky for them Sherman knew of these Unionist percentages thus sparing North Carolina the treatment he gave to GA and SC ). However, for a West Virginian to fly the Confederate flag is about as authentic as an Ohioan flying the flag because of the few generals the state contributed to the Confederacy.
So yeah, there was a flap back in the 1990s about high school students in Waynesboro, Pennsylvania brandishing the Confederate flag. For all I know, Waynesboro could have supplied troops to the Confederacy and a few of these kids could have been their descendants. I have no doubt many former Confederates migrated to West Virginia and Confederate troops returned home to West Virginia after the war. Heck, Lincoln has to send in troops to occupy NEW YORK CITY during the draft riots of 1863. No battle in West Virginia during the Civil War had as many casualties as the 2,000 who were killed in New York.
However, Pennsylvania was never part of the Confederacy and these kids wearing the battle flag are just disaffected youth seeking to identify with the Confederacy for ulterior motives outside of ever having been part of the Confederacy. Accordingly, I would contend that many people flying the Confederate battle flag don't even know what the REAL Confederate national flag looks like (outside of GA); very rarely do I see it emblazoned on anything. I am simply applying that same standard I would to New York, Ohio, or Pennsylvania to the state of West Virginia.
The "border states" of Maryland, Delaware, and Kentucky whose "Southerness" is being questioned all voted against the Fifteenth Amendment. Even Virginia, Georgia, and Mississippi voted for it to get their representatives back into Congress. North Carolina, Arkansas, Florida, Louisiana, by God Alabama, and even South Carolina, the place where the Confederacy all started, voted to ratify the Fifteenth Amendment.
Is West Virginia "southern"? Well they were the second state to ratify the Fifteenth Amendment. Not too "Southern". Maryland was the third to last state to ratify it in 1973, a symbolic vote at best. Now, that sounds "Southern" to me! (kind of like Mississippi finally voting to make slavery illegal in 1995 or Alabama legalizing interracial marriage in 2000).
Steeler, self-identity is a key point of regionalism and I know from experience than when you get south of Petersburg, the residents clearly ID themselves as southerns, and their ancestors were overwhelmingly Confederate soldiers. Everything you said about the formation of WV is correct, but remember, much like Maryland today, the people in power and in majority dictated the terms, and they lived in the "Trans-Allegheny" Ohio River Valley were backed by the guns of the union.
As for flying the Rebel flag, anyone who can trace their roots to Confederate soliders or sympathizers have every right to fly the flag the same as a Greek-American can proudly fly the Greek flag (many of whose ancestors never actually lived in today's political state of Greece), or millions of "Irish" can put on the Green, Orange, and White and parade every St. Patrick's Day. Flags doesn't just represent political soverienty, they also represent personal roots and self-identity.
Last edited by westsideboy; 03-05-2011 at 08:09 AM..
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Not really in their truth, but how they either separate Maryland from the Northeast or tie it to the South.
