Maryland a southern state (Baltimore: lower-class, farm, famous)

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by doctorjef

The broad distinction is usually between the Deep South (Lower South, more academically) and the Upper South. The latter is unequivocally represented by NC, VA, and TN. The positions occupied by MD, DE, KY are more open to debate. Arkansas is also a little difficult to classify. MO has a lower bit that is essentially Southern. West Virginia might be described as Mountain/Appalachian South. Some demographers and historians maintain that Kentucky has become more culturally Southern since the Civil War, while West Virginia has become less so. Certainly the patterns of trade unionism and politics in West Virginia are more Northern and PA-like than the political climate of Kentucky.

Here's a definition of PA that I like: Philadelphia and Pittsburg, with Alabama in between. Also known as Pennsatucky.

Which is a smartassism from James Carville that natives of that area find offensive.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Which is a smartassism from James Carville that natives of that area find offensive.

Folks here call themselves "Pennsyltuckians" with pride. Though they don't identify with Alabama at all, or seem remotely Alabamian.

I would never classify Maryland as one group. Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore I would call your "Upper South", doctorjeff, Western Maryland I would call Appalachian, and Central and Baltimore areas I would call Mid-Atlantic. I wouldn't label anything in the state northern, in the New England sense.

[K-Luv]

You know, this all boils down to one thing: Marylanders who identify with the South and Marylanders who do not. It is not a geopraphic or phonetic issue. It is a simple matter of preference. The only difference is that those who do not claim Maryland to be a Southern state do not necessarily claim Maryland to be a Yankee state. Why does it have to be either? And at the end of the day, who really cares? This is especially true seeing as how not only can the South not agree on who is who in Southern states, but that if they do not consider NC a Southern state, why in the heck would you think they would accept Maryland as a Southern state. So, why in the eff would anyone want to be a member of something that doesn't regard you as "one of them"? It is like how Quebec thinks it is "aligned" with France and wants to succeed from Canada despite the fact that France could care the eff less about French Canadians and thinks of them as Canadians, not their kin.

And if you don't care if the South accepts Maryland as a Southern state or not, yet you still view Maryland as a Southern state, then why not just have Maryland be its own thing? You know, there are plenty of New Englanders who take pride in being Yankees yet fly the Confederate Flag. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Richard Martin

When you go into Greenville, NC you're just as likely to hear a mid-Atlantic accent as you are a southern accent.

So, it has to do with accent? Sorry, but accent has nothing to do with it as one may not have the accent but still utilize the specific patterns of speech. I have never heard anyone use this as a criteria for Southernism. It usually comes down to Confederacy, cuisine, and/or hospitality (mannerisms) that differentiates the South from the North.

[drs72]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

The "dawg" thing is probably because of the cot=caught merger. I don't know how to say "dog" without a bit of a back glide in there. I spend most of time as a kid in Cumberland, but my parents are both from small mining villages outside of Frostburg, so that back mergered vowel is very thick in my speech. My 3 year old daughter has picked it up. Our friends make of her because she calls their kid "Bwobby." My mom's downstate friends tease her because she calls one of them named Scott "Scwott" (think squat.) The "W" I add isn't the best approximation of the actual vowel sound, but it is as close as I can come to it. The point is that the vowel is vocalized so far back in the mouth that there has to be a "back glide" to get from the consonants to the vowel sound.

Being from Coney, I am sure you know what I mean. You mention it being even thicker in Northern WV. I am not suprised at all.

Hmmm.... I think maybe I should have been more specific. They don't pronounce it "dawg" with that short back O that comes from Pittsburgh. And they certainly don't pronounce it in a NY/NJ/Philly sense. The "aw" sound they use in "dog" is like the Western Maryland pronunciation of "doll" (with a dark velar L) with a G on the end. It sounds pretty Southern to me. I know there's a word for this, I just can't think of it.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by drs72

Hmmm.... I think maybe I should have been more specific. They don't pronounce it "dawg" with that short back O that comes from Pittsburgh. And they certainly don't pronounce it in a NY/NJ/Philly sense. The "aw" sound they use in "dog" is like the Western Maryland pronunciation of "doll" (with a dark velar L) with a G on the end. It sounds pretty Southern to me. I know there's a word for this, I just can't think of it.

Hmmm...you got me on that one. All I can say is that nearly all of our back vowels are messed up around here.

For instance, I say "dog", just like "doll" (and "dull" for that matter), except with a "g" on the end. "Dawg" is a pretty good way to describe it, almost two syllables
(Duh-awg).

But, I don't backglide out of the short "o" in "dock......although outsiders would probably stil perceive the vowel sound as "dwock" because of how far back in my mouth the vowel is produced. Maybe this means the merger isn't complete since I do have two different short "o"s? Maybe a "voiced" consonant like "g" retains that velar l glide that we have around here while unvoiced consonsants, like "k" don't?

More research needed.......

[North Beach Person]

Who would have imagined Southerners knew so much about linguistics? You guys lost me several posts ago.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Who would have imagined Southerners knew so much about linguistics? You guys lost me several posts ago.

I would say it is a thread-jack, but seeing as we are on pg. 71, I think it will slide

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Who would have imagined Southerners knew so much about linguistics? You guys lost me several posts ago.

Same.

[drs72]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

Hmmm...you got me on that one. All I can say is that nearly all of our back vowels are messed up around here.

For instance, I say "dog", just like "doll" (and "dull" for that matter), except with a "g" on the end. "Dawg" is a pretty good way to describe it, almost two syllables
(Duh-awg).

But, I don't backglide out of the short "o" in "dock......although outsiders would probably stil perceive the vowel sound as "dwock" because of how far back in my mouth the vowel is produced. Maybe this means the merger isn't complete since I do have two different short "o"s? Maybe a "voiced" consonant like "g" retains that velar l glide that we have around here while unvoiced consonsants, like "k" don't?

More research needed.......

I'm telling ya, I think we're still in the transition zone, as it stands. I don't have the cot-caught merger and my grandparents on one side of the family (in Keyser) seem to have a very strong resistance to it. If you've ever seen any of the "Mountain Maryland's Best Kept Secrets" videos, Kimberli Rowley, a native of Cumberland, is mostly cot-caught unmerged with a few exceptions here and there. On the flip side, I know some people who really have that short back O.

Listen to "got," "Tom," and "shot." When she says "John," I can't tell if she's slightly backgliding or just getting a little stuffed up..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpnkE...eature=related

EDIT: Also, notice that she has that pull-pool merger that you say still confuses some people when you do it. I wonder how she'd say "pole."

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Who would have imagined Southerners knew so much about linguistics? You guys lost me several posts ago.

The time between posts leaves plenty of room for Google. But how knows?