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Well, Atlantic City, NJ is directly east of Baltimore. I'll stick with the former purpose of the Mason-Dixon line.
I guess ignorance is bliss. I love how yall use the 17th century meaning as gospel yet the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st century meanings are null. Makes alot of sense.
Haven't posted here in a long while. I'm really shocked that this discussion is still going on. Maryland clearly straddles both the North and the South and exhibits traits of both (which is why this debate is unique to MD-DC-DE), although significantly more of the former. Maryland is unique in that so many different cultural regions are crammed into such a small state. Western MD is not the Eastern Shore is not Central MD is not Southern MD. Maryland is more than anything else Mid-Atlantic.
I believe Maryland is more Northern than Southern, but not to the extent that I would call myself a "yankee." Cities and towns in the Baltimore-Washington Metro Area (where 90% of the state lives and most of them aren't "transplants" are clearly Northern though. The lower MD/DE counties on the Delmarva are more Southern, as well as some rural areas of Southern MD. Western MD has a distinctly Appalachian culture that doesn't translate well into North vs South.
As I've mentioned before, on simlar threads, on paper the state is 99% Northern with every statistic possible (density, politics, avg level of education, economy, wealth) correlating more with Northeast than the South. In reality there are a few indications of Southerness: random Confederate monuments, a few Southern chains such as BB&T, Suntrust, Food Lion, etc. Still when you go the true, undisputed South (the one that starts at Fredericksburg) its like a different world.
Last week I was visiting Winston-Salem, NC for the umpteenth time. Just driving there was totally different from driving in MD and north. The tons of religious, firearm, and conservative political (including one that clearly said "impeach Obama"). The plethora of Hardees, Shoneys, Cracker Barrels (i have seen a couple in MD, DE, and NJ), Bojangles, and Waffle Houses at nearly every, single exit. This is in urban areas in Richmond, the Triad, and Research triangle too. Everyone had a deep drawl far from any I've heard in MD/DC/NoVa. One lady I met at a party, after I introduced myself, specifically told me welcome to the South. That said I wouldn't call Maryland a "typical" Northern state, except for Baltimore city, which is very much typically Northern, unlike DC which is very unique. The farther North you go the less similarities you'll find.
That's why Maryland is best labelled Mid-Atlantic since nearly all of its qualities are found inthe other states (PA, NJ, DE, WV, DC-NoVa) in the region. The same logic above applies to DC and DE.
There are no mid-Atlantic qualities in West Virginia. It is lumped in the region for no real reason other than convenience. Jefferson and Berkeley counties are considered part of the DC MSA region but that's about it.
Status:
"48 years in MD, 18 in NC"
(set 12 days ago)
Location: Greenville, NC
2,309 posts, read 6,103,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp
Last week I was visiting Winston-Salem, NC for the umpteenth time. Just driving there was totally different from driving in MD and north. The tons of religious, firearm, and conservative political (including one that clearly said "impeach Obama"). The plethora of Hardees, Shoneys, Cracker Barrels (i have seen a couple in MD, DE, and NJ), Bojangles, and Waffle Houses at nearly every, single exit. This is in urban areas in Richmond, the Triad, and Research triangle too. Everyone had a deep drawl far from any I've heard in MD/DC/NoVa. One lady I met at a party, after I introduced myself, specifically told me welcome to the South. That said I wouldn't call Maryland a "typical" Northern state, except for Baltimore city, which is very much typically Northern, unlike DC which is very unique. The farther North you go the less similarities you'll find.
I guess it all depends of which part of North Carolina you visit. I'm in Greenville and you're just as likely to hear a Mid Atlantic accent as you are a southern accent. We also have the same basic fast food joints that you have in Maryland. In addition to the Hardees, Bojangles, Waffle Houses and Cracker Barrels we also have McDonald's, Popeyes, Burger King, Dippin Dots, 5 Guys, Domino's, Pizza Hut, etc. etc. etc. It's all here.
One of the reason's we chose Greenville to move to was the similarity to where we lived in Maryland. Even the neighborhood we live in is dominated by transplants. Some of the states and countries represented here are Michigan (1), England (1), Canada (1), NY (2), Maryland (2), NJ (1) and FL (1). There aren't that many houses in our neighborhood.
Why does Maryland have to be one or the other anyway? Maryland has never had a strong connection with the north or the south. Back in the War Between the States it wasn't really supportive or enthusiastic about either side, and today it bears a lack of similarity to both the Deep South and New England.
Even Pennsylvania lacks a "northern feel" in most of the state. But there's not any "southernness" here.
Let Maryland have its own identity instead of applying two cultural groups, both of which Maryland is not a true part of.
Mid-Atlantic might fit, but "mid-atlantic" just seems like a compromise meaningless mush of maritime, appalachian, and various other cultures.
No northern state would fight this hard to be southern and no southern state would fight this hard to be northern.
We also have the same basic fast food joints that you have in Maryland. In addition to the Hardees, Bojangles, Waffle Houses and Cracker Barrels we also have McDonald's, Popeyes, Burger King, Dippin Dots, 5 Guys, Domino's, Pizza Hut, etc. etc. etc. It's all here.
One of the reason's we chose Greenville to move to was the similarity to where we lived in Maryland. Even the neighborhood we live in is dominated by transplants.
Yeah, but those are national chains that exist in most states from the Atlantic to Pacific, well except 5 Guys and maybe Dippin Dots (?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca
Why does Maryland have to be one or the other anyway? Maryland has never had a strong connection with the north or the south. Back in the War Between the States it wasn't really supportive or enthusiastic about either side, and today it bears a lack of similarity to both the Deep South and New England.
Even Pennsylvania lacks a "northern feel" in most of the state. But there's not any "southernness" here.
Let Maryland have its own identity instead of applying two cultural groups, both of which Maryland is not a true part of.
Mid-Atlantic might fit, but "mid-atlantic" just seems like a compromise meaningless mush of maritime, appalachian, and various other cultures.
No northern state would fight this hard to be southern and no southern state would fight this hard to be northern.
This. Maryland clearly shares very little with the Deep South, but also little with New England (especially away from the BosWas corridor). Maryland "rural" and Massachusetts "rural" are definitely different. Baltimore and Boston though do have a pretty high number of similarities, especially when it comes to development, immigration, and economic history in the 1900's although the former is a little, er...'less appealing' than the latter.
I disagree slightly with the Mid-Atlantic term though, I definitlely feel similarly (and have made the same argument) but if there is vehement disagreement on it being Northern or Southern, it has to be something.
Also, no state embodies "Mid-Atlantic" more than Maryland in my opinion. Maryland is included in nearly every single definition of "Mid-Atlantic" and I would be willing to bet that there are far more businesses located hear under the "Mid-Atlantic" term than any other state. The Balt-Wash media, which I admit is hardly a worthy source, consistently calls the state "Mid-Atlantic."
Yeah I admit it is kind of a cop-out term, but it fits. Same for DC and DE. West Virginia now is so different from any state it borders (except for overlap) that its a region unto itself.
Well, Atlantic City, NJ is directly east of Baltimore. I'll stick with the former purpose of the Mason-Dixon line.
This reminded me of a conversation a friend of mine had at the University of Delaware. They were trying to decide whether Delaware was northern or southern, and while they felt they had more in common with New Jersey and Philly than Maryland (which they were assuming was southern), they were confused because far south Jersey and Delaware are east of the Mason-Dixon line. They called southern Delaware a "Maryland-like hick land".
Last edited by Tezcatlipoca; 04-15-2012 at 08:38 PM..
Yeah I admit it is kind of a cop-out term, but it fits. Same for DC and DE. West Virginia now is so different from any state it borders (except for overlap) that its a region unto itself.
My problem with it is that, as you say, it is a cop-out. It seems like the definition is "Maryland-like states" - since mid-atlantic states are all the ones that border MD, plus NJ. I can see the cultural connection except when Virginia is excluded from the definition and New York is included. That just confuses me.
It seems to be like this:
Maryland doesn't fit into any region. You call me a "yankee" and i'm going to get mad. You call a Silver Springer a southron and they'll just be confused.
WV does their own thing.
PA is far from typical Yankee-land. Though I've only been in the south / central area of the state. For all I know the rest could be like the northeast or somewhere else entirely.
Delaware is like Maryland in the south and NJ/East PA in the north.
Virginia doesn't fit clearly either - though it's traditionally south for being in the CSA. Tidewater region looks to Chesapeake MD, noVA to DC, the west to appalachia, and the middle looks south.
NJ/NY -- ??? I always considered NY to be true north, and NJ to be a frightening exurb of Philadelphia. And the Philly region seems to defy the western and central state of PA, so i'm not sure what is going on here. I've heard Philly compared to Baltimore, but I don't see it. The people there are so different.
So we group them all together because the main issue seems to be MD and DE, and they need friends.
Last edited by Tezcatlipoca; 04-16-2012 at 08:40 AM..
Yall first need to stop relating Maryland to the "Deep south" in order to determine southern status. I frequently travel to North Carolina and virginia and rural parts culturally match ours. We are the upper south and share culture with some states but the deep south is very different from NC, VA, MD, KY, WV. As for some of the firearms/obama hate/religion/etc can be found in great abundance western and easter MD. Hell even in central Maryland there are gun toting church going obama haters everywhere. Hell I have 3 churches within a stones throw of my house and I live in a high yankee population area of Maryland. But hey I guess in order to be a southerner or a southern state you need to go to be a bible thumping gun toting obama hater....
As for where we stood in the war of northern aggression we were the first ground altercation between south and north. We also, like Virginia, north carolina etc, remained nuetral at the outset of secession. But as we were about to leave the union we were occupied by yankees and civil rights were taken away from all Marylanders (Why any marylander should hate lincoln). Yet despite being occupied under a large yankee force and civil rights non existent we still set nearly 30k to the south and that was without a SINGLE recruiting station due to the occupation. Gee I wonder how many would have joined had there actually been recruiting there and no occupation. Lincoln knew this and moved fast to occupy us. Oh and kentucky never really had plans at all the secede yet nobody every comments on that historical event. But I forsee that now that I argued the Civil war history that yall will state it doesnt mean anything unless youre using it to claim MD for the north.
Nobody is saying Maryland doesnt have parts with strong yankee culture (central MD), but the state geographic resides in dixie. Like I said before would you classify other southern states due to their yankee transplant areas? No yall dont do that. I bet there are many places in the south I could drop yall off at and for miles all yall think you were in the north. Just like there are places in Maryland that you think you were in NC, VA, KY or WV. When I go to PA, NJ, Northern DE, NY, etc I feel like I need a passport as the culture differences are huge. But hey I guess bunch of transplants in cycling in and out of our state in a fraction of our counties and the fact that they align with where they came from defines our southern status and culture.
Yall first need to stop relating Maryland to the "Deep south" in order to determine southern status. I frequently travel to North Carolina and virginia and rural parts culturally match ours. We are the upper south and share culture with some states but the deep south is very different from NC, VA, MD, KY, WV. As for some of the firearms/obama hate/religion/etc can be found in great abundance western and easter MD. Hell even in central Maryland there are gun toting church going obama haters everywhere. Hell I have 3 churches within a stones throw of my house and I live in a high yankee population area of Maryland. But hey I guess in order to be a southerner or a southern state you need to go to be a bible thumping gun toting obama hater....
As for where we stood in the war of northern aggression we were the first ground altercation between south and north. We also, like Virginia, north carolina etc, remained nuetral at the outset of secession. But as we were about to leave the union we were occupied by yankees and civil rights were taken away from all Marylanders (Why any marylander should hate lincoln). Yet despite being occupied under a large yankee force and civil rights non existent we still set nearly 30k to the south and that was without a SINGLE recruiting station due to the occupation. Gee I wonder how many would have joined had there actually been recruiting there and no occupation. Lincoln knew this and moved fast to occupy us. Oh and kentucky never really had plans at all the secede yet nobody every comments on that historical event. But I forsee that now that I argued the Civil war history that yall will state it doesnt mean anything unless youre using it to claim MD for the north.
Nobody is saying Maryland doesnt have parts with strong yankee culture (central MD), but the state geographic resides in dixie. Like I said before would you classify other southern states due to their yankee transplant areas? No yall dont do that. I bet there are many places in the south I could drop yall off at and for miles all yall think you were in the north. Just like there are places in Maryland that you think you were in NC, VA, KY or WV. When I go to PA, NJ, Northern DE, NY, etc I feel like I need a passport as the culture differences are huge. But hey I guess bunch of transplants in cycling in and out of our state in a fraction of our counties and the fact that they align with where they came from defines our southern status and culture.
Yeah, all the impeach Obama stuff is heavy up here in Western Maryland, our towns are defined by the steeples of churches. And you correct about the fact that South isn't a monolyth. It has many different sub-region linked by......................an acceptance of a common "Southern" heritage.
I will say that I don't think Western Maryland (Allegany and Garrett) is easily defined as North or South. We are Appalachia. Its own region. You will find natives up here with Rebel Flags, Confederate ancestors and Southern accents, as well as natives with stronger Midland dialect traits (like myself) and ancestors that fought for the Union. We are in the middle of the spectrum, as one would expect from a border state.
Andrew S, there is that there is a reason we are on page 74 of this discussion. Nobody can even seem to agree to disagree.
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