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I live in south-central PA and was rather shocked when I saw rebel flags up here. I never though anything of them back in MD but I figured Pennsylvanians found them offensive and wouldn't fly them. But then I also learned upon moving here that Pennsylvanians in this area at least are hardly what anyone thinks "northerners" are supposed to be like.
Heritage not hate my friend. The main problem I have with people being "insulted" by a rebel flag is ignorance. Why should a peoples heritage/flag be ruined by a few terrible scum of the earth people? But I guess the flag is an easy scapegoat for so many. Thankfully the Maryland state flag and the flag of howard county Maryland are both rebel flags that flew over southern units during the war of northern aggression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca
Thank you. I keep hearing "you can't get sweet tea and grits in MD" to which I say, "yes you can", and the reply is "no you can't". I think I know my own state, thanks. Nice to hear someone actually tried.
Yeah pretty much everywhere I go I can get sweet tea. Really its only fast food places that dont have traditional sweet tea (KFC is the one that stands out the most). SO I agree its nice to hear someone admit you can get these easily as opposed to the nay sayers saying it cant be found.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca
This is what I and many others been trying to say. Unfortunately people want to put it in a group and it gets stuck in one or the other, when MD hardly fits with either region's archetype.
Well it is located 100% within dixie. Does the culture? No. Is any southern states culture 100% southern? No. But is Maryland a southern state? Yes 100%.
What people need to understand is you dont need to be exactly like a deep southern state to be in the south, and your culture does not need to be 100% southern to be a southern state. This is the new south and the identity has changed. If those standards need to be fulfilled then the south no longer exists.
Yeah PA is VERY different from the rest of the north east.
As for sweet tea and grits, its nice to see chains try them but they are never the same. Went bob evens and got grits and while they were OK, they pale in comparison to the way my grandma made them or heck even a maw and paw restaurant. Same goes for mcdonalds sweet tea, nice attempt but too much sugar and its no home brewed Luzianne and real sugar like I always have in my fridge.
There are pockets where the dialect is not considered SAE (Southern American English) one of them is Charleston and the other is New Orleans area. I dont know why they arent considered SAE, but I have an inkling is due to the creole/cajun being french based. As for why Charleston isnt included is beyond me, but there is a high occupation there/in that area.
As for Maryland being a clash of cultures, thats to be expected in the border states. Youll notice in KY, WV, MD, MO and DE(to a much lesser extent) that the states will exibit a bit of each. Its literally impossible to border a northern state and not have some of its traits near your border culturally, but again PA for the most part is so far different from the rest of the northeast we dont naturally have any northeast culture. The closest might be the northeast corner nearest to philly, but then again its nothing like I remember philly being.
Does Northeast culture exist in Maryland? Sure, but it was imported. Does PA culture exist in Maryland? You bet and it is actually native to the border areas.
Id say alot of it is these days, although there are quite a few people in the surrounding areas that arent. Its the eastern half of howard county, Montgomery, northern PG/AA, baltimore city and some of baltimore county has a high "import" rate.
Heritage not hate my friend. The main problem I have with people being "insulted" by a rebel flag is ignorance. Why should a peoples heritage/flag be ruined by a few terrible scum of the earth people?
Well it is located 100% within dixie. Does the culture? No. Is any southern states culture 100% southern? No. But is Maryland a southern state? Yes 100%.
What people need to understand is you dont need to be exactly like a deep southern state to be in the south, and your culture does not need to be 100% southern to be a southern state.
So, I guess people insulted by the swastika would be ignorant as well, since most German soldiers (even those in the Waffen-SS) weren't anti-Semitics/Nazis?
Very few would agree with Maryland being "100% Southern." There are traits here and there, but if it was so solidly Southern we wouldn't be having this endless discussion or you wouldn't have to put "PROUD Son of the South" as your "location" . In fact according to a UNC poll most Marylanders don't consider themselves Southern. The very many reasons why Maryland is more aligned with the Northeast than the South (and quintessentially "Mid-Atlantic" more than anything) are listed ad nauseam in the previous 2 million pages.
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Originally Posted by andrew_s
Its the eastern half of howard county, Montgomery, northern PG/AA, baltimore city and some of baltimore county has a high "import" rate.
Baltimore and its suburbs don't have the high "import rate" of DC and its suburbs, with most residents being born in the MD. I also find it interesting that despite Virginia and North Carolina having far more transplants than Maryland, no one disputes what region they're in.
Baltimore itself is a very Northern city and it has little to do with transplants since its been that way for over 100 years. There are many reasons Baltimore is considered Northern, but I'll list the biggest/most obvious ones.
Size:
Historically, Baltimore has been one of the nation's largest cities along with New York, Philadelphia, and Boston. Since the nation's creation until the white flight and crime waves of the 70's and 80's Baltimore has been one of the nation's largest cities while the vast majority of Southern towns were small backwaters.
Industry:
Since the late 19th century Baltimore has been an industrial hub much like the other cities in the Northeast and MidWest. During the Civil War, the B&O Railroad (one of the largest businesses in MD) was critical to the Union war effort. Recently with the decline of manufacturing in this country, Baltimore's industry has become more service-oriented. D
Growth:
Baltimore grew very rapidly during the first half of the 1900's thanks to its burgeoning industrial economy. During the Great Migration of blacks from the South, Baltimore (and Maryland in general) saw it's black population swell immensely, similarly to the other cities in the Northeast/MidWest/West. Baltimore also saw an influx of white Southerners during World War II coming mostly from impoverished, rural regions of NC and VA.
Immigration:
Just like the other Northeastern cities Baltimore saw a huge influx of European immigrants in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Baltimore still has large communities of Poles, Greeks, Irish, and Italians. Little Italy is one of the city's most famed neighborhoods. Many Baltimore industries and institutions are still run by descendants of European immigrants, a notable example being the police department. This immigration is virtually non-existent in the South.
Misc Features:
There are many subtle features of Baltimore that can also be found in other large Northern cities, but not in the South. One of these features are row homes which are ubiquitous to Baltimore (as well as DC). It's really sad that in many parts of the city these homes are shuttered or in crime-ravaged neighborhoods. It's kinda depressing driving through and seeing street after street of identical row homes abandoned.
Another feature is population density. Baltimore's current population density is around ~7,500/sq. mi (DC's is 10K/sq. mi.). Absolutely no major Southern city (outside of South/Central FL which is a mini-cultural/historical region of its own) has a population density over 5,000/sq. mi. Of course before it was hemorrhaging people it was much higher.
Ties:
Baltimore has long maintained economic and cultural ties with Philadelphia. It wasn't until relatively recently with the rapid growth of the Balt-Wash Metro Area that DC has had closer ties with Baltimore. Baltimore's almost like a mini-Philly, and yes while crab cakes rule, hoagies and scrapple can be found everywhere (and I'm not talking about Subway ).
Religion:
Baltimore has always been staunchly Catholic (as has Maryland long before Independence) along with the rest of the Northeast. The South, on the other hand, is dominated by Protestants.
I'm not going to say Baltimore is "100%" Northern, for one because nothing is absolutely anything, and secondly Baltimore does have some Southern traits. Most notably, Baltimore was an important city in the slave trade, which is probably why many residents had divided sentiments during the Civil War.
Please forgive the essay, I only originally meant to respond in a few sentences.
I honestly don't get the same "feel" from Baltimore as with Philly and above though. Despite the obvious similarities it just feels really different and I can't place why.
Maryland remains geographically southern but culturally mixed. I consider myself a southerner but as stated before i'm reluctant to put Maryland into any category because the state is far to diverse to do that.
The only area I consider to not be "true maryland" and full of transplants is the DC suburbs, because they culturally have absolutely nothing in common with the rest of the state.
Indeed. I might also add that Virginia and North Carolina are much bigger, yet both those states have threads about whether or not they are southern.
If I remember properly, the only state with an "is it southern thread" that was unanimously called southern was Kentucky.
If people up north actually cared about this sort of thing, we might see "Pennsylvania: is it northern?" threads.
Indeed. I might also add that Virginia and North Carolina are much bigger, yet both those states have threads about whether or not they are southern.
If I remember properly, the only state with an "is it southern thread" that was unanimously called southern was Kentucky.
If people up north actually cared about this sort of thing, we might see "Pennsylvania: is it northern?" threads.
Okay, I have now seen these states have their northernness/southernness questioned: Pennsylvania - ongoing between north and mid-atlantic after the southern idea was shot down as total nonsense. West Virginia - total confusion leaning appalachian. Kentucky - was agreed to be southern. Maryland - ongoing between south, north, and mid-atlantic Virginia - ongoing between south and mid-atlantic after the northern idea was shot down as total nonsense. North Carolina - ongoing between south and mid-atlantic. Delaware - was agreed to be half/half.
It seems the chesapeake and appalachia is the center of this nonsense.
This really calls for a mid-atlantic region but people seem to have even more trouble deciding where that is, with people putting as far north as NY and as far south as SC in the mix, and as far west as Kentucky. I would personally say it's ridiculous to put any of those three states in the mix but someone obviously thinks it makes sense.
Okay, I have now seen these states have their northernness/southernness questioned: Pennsylvania - ongoing between north and mid-atlantic after the southern idea was shot down as total nonsense. West Virginia - total confusion leaning appalachian. Kentucky - was agreed to be southern. Maryland - ongoing between south, north, and mid-atlantic Virginia - ongoing between south and mid-atlantic after the northern idea was shot down as total nonsense. North Carolina - ongoing between south and mid-atlantic. Delaware - was agreed to be half/half.
It seems the chesapeake and appalachia is the center of this nonsense.
This really calls for a mid-atlantic region but people seem to have even more trouble deciding where that is, with people putting as far north as NY and as far south as SC in the mix, and as far west as Kentucky. I would personally say it's ridiculous to put any of those three states in the mix but someone obviously thinks it makes sense.
With the exception of DE, all of the above states have sections that are part of Appalachia. WV is normally the only state completely in the region.
Mid-Atlantic, bleh. I don't know what it would mean assign from geography. It has no real culture meaning, and while there is a dialect region called "Midland" it is a very thin band on the East Coast, ranging roughly from below the Lower Tier Counties of PA to about Annapolis or DC in Maryland. The dialect region expands as you head west, but not all of the states in contention on the east coast for the "Mid-Atlantic" label would fit.
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. In fact according to a UNC poll most Marylanders don't consider themselves Southern. The very many reasons why Maryland is more aligned with the Northeast than the South (and quintessentially "Mid-Atlantic" more than anything) are listed ad nauseam in the previous 2 million pages.
