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The US Celsius Beuearu includes NY, PA and NY as mid Atlantic states they include Maryland as a southern state. ive always included it as a Southern state it probably changed in the 90's. its historically southern and if you go down to southern Maryland, western Maryland and the eastern shore southern culture is found
The only thing about that is that Marlyand still had a rather strong southern identity by the mid century. Some people dismiss the fact that the state joined both the SGA and the SLC in the 30s and 40s, but that definitely, in my mind at least, speaks to how a lot of people in the state thought during that time. We can't look at events in mid-twentieth century Maryland through a 21st Century lens. I'm not saying you're wrong or that that wasn't a factor or anything, but that it's simply one piece of evidence to consider.
Well, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Florida are also members of the SGA. So is Missouri and Oklahoma, although Missouri really wanted to be a Southern state....and probably still does.
As for Maryland...I mainly think of Maryland as a Mid-Atlantic state, but when I was younger I thought of it as Southern. I don't know why or when the "switch" happened for me, probably around the time Patriot Games came out. That book (and film) gave me the impression of Maryland being something more akin to the quintessential New England state. I am from California, by the way.
To answer your question, though, my guess that Maryland "officially" stopped identifying with the South sometime around 1960; at a time when the definition of the megalopolis was redefined and the Boston-Washington corridor became an established MSA.
Well, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Florida are also members of the SGA. So is Missouri and Oklahoma, although Missouri really wanted to be a Southern state....and probably still does.
Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands were the last members of the SGA (in 1968 and 1969, respectively). Missouri officially became a member in 1961. Prior to 1961, the SGA was composed of the following states:
Alabama
Arkansas
Florida
Kentucky
Louisiana Maryland
Mississippi
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Virginia
West Virginia
Those states pretty much make up the core of the South today. Since Puerto Rico did not have an elected governor until 1947 and the U.S. Virgin Islands until 1969, they had to caucus with somebody, and I guess they figured it was logical to join a region with a state with which it already had extensive ties (Florida).
Florida is still a southern state today. And Florida was definitely a southern state in 1947. Zora Neale Hurston and Ray Charles were both raised in Florida at a time when the state was both very racist and very southern. Even South Florida, which people largely associate with Cubans and Jews today, was very racist, southern and segregated.
It doesn't strike me as particuarly odd that Oklahoma is a member. In 2014, it may strike some as odd, but you can't assume that people had the same view in the 1930s and 1940s that they do in 2014. The biggest oddball, imo, is Missouri since it was never a southern state by official designation and actually had split affiliations for a long time (MO was a member of the Midwest Region of the Council of Governments). But yes, I agree that Missouri is also one of the states that gets pulled in more than one direction by different regions.
With regard to Maryland, I don't think there's too much question about whether it was officially southern. Not only was the state part of the former southern colonies prior to the American Revolution. Not only did Maryland vote for Breckenridge in the Election of 1860. Not only was Maryland a slave-holding state after the start of the Civil War. Not only did Maryland join the Southern Governors Association and caucus with states like South Carolina when Strom Thurmond was its governor. It also became one of the original 15 members of the Southern Legislative Conference in 1948, the composition of which remained unchanged for 45 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv
As for Maryland...I mainly think of Maryland as a Mid-Atlantic state, but when I was younger I thought of it as Southern. I don't know why or when the "switch" happened for me, probably around the time Patriot Games came out. That book (and film) gave me the impression of Maryland being something more akin to the quintessential New England state. I am from California, by the way.
Same here. Nothing seemed southern about Jack Ryan's abode at all. But then again, Patriot Games never showed us much of Anne Arundel County (and certainly didn't show us the low income housing in Annapolis) so it was impossible to detect any southerness from watching the film. But I get what you're saying. That's just movies for you. I didn't think anything was southern about South Carolina when I was watching "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson either. They didn't even have southern accents! And remember the scene where the guy lets his slave go at the end? I'm sure that totally happened all the time.
To answer your question, though, my guess that Maryland "officially" stopped identifying with the South sometime around 1960; at a time when the definition of the megalopolis was redefined and the Boston-Washington corridor became an established MSA.
The 60s were probably the beginning of it. And I say that based on a number of different memoirs and the like that I've come across. For example, in Reginald Lewis' autobiography "Why Should White Guys Have All The Fun?" (Reg Lewis was a black billionaire born and raised in 1950s Baltimore; Lewis died before the book was published), the author says the following (this comes from the very first page of the book):
Quote:
The Baltimore of the 1940s and 1950s was a city of gentility, slow living and racial segregation. No one had heard of Martin Luther King....or civil rights...or integration. As in other Southern cities of the time, there were many things black people in Baltimore couldn't do. They couldn't try on clothes or shop at many downtown stores. They couldn't eat in certain restaurants or go to certain movie theaters.
There's even an interview where Lewis says himself: "I'm just a southern boy from Baltimore." So, I mean, this was the perception of someone who finished high school in Baltimore in 1960.
Here's an interview conducted as part of a series on the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington. Granted, the interviewee is talking about Washington, DC, but I don't think Baltimore and DC were much different then (DC has certainly changed more).
Quote:
"It was Southern, and you learned that very quickly," she says. "I don't mean that in a negative way. There were things such as you'd stand at the corner, waiting to take the bus, and little ladies would say, 'Good morning.' That kind of thing."
Are these interviews conclusive? No. But they provide some insight, imo, into how people likely viewed the region back in those days. Even now, when I talk to a lot of older black Washingtonians (over the age of 60), many say that DC is the South.
Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands were the last members of the SGA (in 1968 and 1969, respectively). Missouri officially became a member in 1961. Prior to 1961, the SGA was composed of the following states:
Alabama
Arkansas
Florida
Kentucky
Louisiana Maryland
Mississippi
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Virginia
West Virginia
Those states pretty much make up the core of the South today. Since Puerto Rico did not have an elected governor until 1947 and the U.S. Virgin Islands until 1969, they had to caucus with somebody, and I guess they figured it was logical to join a region with a state with which it already had extensive ties (Florida).
Florida is still a southern state today. And Florida was definitely a southern state in 1947. Zora Neale Hurston and Ray Charles were both raised in Florida at a time when the state was both very racist and very southern. Even South Florida, which people largely associate with Cubans and Jews today, was very racist, southern and segregated.
It doesn't strike me as particuarly odd that Oklahoma is a member. In 2014, it may strike some as odd, but you can't assume that people had the same view in the 1930s and 1940s that they do in 2014. The biggest oddball, imo, is Missouri since it was never a southern state by official designation and actually had split affiliations for a long time (MO was a member of the Midwest Region of the Council of Governments). But yes, I agree that Missouri is also one of the states that gets pulled in more than one direction by different regions.
With regard to Maryland, I don't think there's too much question about whether it was officially southern. Not only was the state part of the former southern colonies prior to the American Revolution. Not only did Maryland vote for Breckenridge in the Election of 1860. Not only was Maryland a slave-holding state after the start of the Civil War. Not only did Maryland join the Southern Governors Association and caucus with states like South Carolina when Strom Thurmond was its governor. It also became one of the original 15 members of the Southern Legislative Conference in 1948, the composition of which remained unchanged for 45 years.
Same here. Nothing seemed southern about Jack Ryan's abode at all. But then again, Patriot Games never showed us much of Anne Arundel County (and certainly didn't show us the low income housing in Annapolis) so it was impossible to detect any southerness from watching the film. But I get what you're saying. That's just movies for you. I didn't think anything was southern about South Carolina when I was watching "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson either. They didn't even have southern accents! And remember the scene where the guy lets his slave go at the end? I'm sure that totally happened all the time.
Here is a county breakdown of the 1860 election returns. Notice the very sharp divide along the Mason-Dixon and Ohio Rivers. North of this divide, Douglas and Lincoln won the counties, south of the divide it was Breckenridge and Bell. You can actually trace out the borders of the states along these divides by the returns.
Looking at Maryland, Bell won 16 counties, Breckenridge won 5 counties and Baltimore City to eek out the narrow victory.
I have to say Mr. Yankee, I am finding utility in this discussion. I knew Western Maryland broke hard for the Southern candidates and Lincoln's votes could be counted with fingers and toes, but didn't know our German kinfolk just miles to the north in PA went heavy GOP red.
I do have to laugh at the Maryland map though. One can look at it and deduce that the regionalism in Maryland was trumped by state allegiance in voting patterns (something you don't see today,) but even back then a few populous jurisdictions still controlled the state wide results (which you still do see today.)
Here is a county breakdown of the 1860 election returns. Notice the very sharp divide along the Mason-Dixon and Ohio Rivers. North of this divide, Douglas and Lincoln won the counties, south of the divide it was Breckenridge and Bell. You can actually trace out the borders of the states along these divides by the returns.
Looking at Maryland, Bell won 16 counties, Breckenridge won 5 counties and Baltimore City to eek out the narrow victory.
I have to say Mr. Yankee, I am finding utility in this discussion. I knew Western Maryland broke hard for the Southern candidates and Lincoln's votes could be counted with fingers and toes, but didn't know our German kinfolk just miles to the north in PA went heavy GOP red.
I do have to laugh at the Maryland map though. One can look at it and deduce that the regionalism in Maryland was trumped by state allegiance in voting patterns (something you don't see today,) but even back then a few populous jurisdictions still controlled the state wide results (which you still do see today.)
Thanks for the post. The map is very interesting. The results from that election nicely coincide with the geographic regions outlined by the Census in 1910. Missouri was sort of a mixture of everything. But the blue counties appear to be the plurality there (and St. Louis, which was one of the largest cities in the country in 1860, voted for either Lincoln or Douglas).
Having a third-party candidate reveals a lot more, imo. I hate when people say "such and such voted Democrat therefore...." because Democrats can vary dramatically by region. The white, West Virginia coal miner and the Hispanic hotel worker in Nevada are two completely different types of Democrats. And so are the liberal Democrats in the DC burbs and the more socially conservative White Catholic voters in Staten Island, New York or Lowell, Massachusetts. A vote in a presidential contest doesn't necessarily tell us a lot about culture or social/political views. That's true of any presidential election, but I still think that a three-party system reflects the diversity of political opinion a whole lot better than a two party system.
Why do people care so much about what MD is considered?
Last edited by KodeBlue; 01-17-2014 at 04:49 PM..
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