Proof that Maryland is Southern (Baltimore, Dundalk: vs., teaching, county)

[ialmostforgot]

Originally Posted by sniffablecow

Yeah, all Im saying is, midland and southern are not the same thing. And, how does it not mean a mix?

Midland accents are equally distinct from northern and southern accents. They lack northern characteristics such as the northern cities vowel shift and lack southern characteristics such as monophthongization of long "i" (when "time" is pronounced like "tahm"). When mostly midland accents may exhibit some northern or southern characteristics, they are categorized separately from the main midland group. The Delaware valley accent is sometimes called "east midland" for this reason (they have northern and southern characteristics). The Baltimore accent is sometimes called a "south midland" accent because of its southern characteristics that most midland accents lack.

[ialmostforgot]

Originally Posted by sniffablecow

I'll reply to the dialect map first... There are many dialect maps, I usually don't take them serious all the time. But there was one map that showed how MD dialect is actually spread out. It showed the DC area having a midland dialect (mix or no accent), Baltimore area having a Delaware valley dialect (Baltimore, Wilmington, philly) western MD having a Appalachian, and southern and eastern shore having a a tidewater (type of southern accent). But the majority of it had a midland accent.

Anyways, the problem I Have with making Delmarva the mid Atlantic is, VA clearly has enough southern culture to still be called southern. You can tell when you go to Richmond. Maryland and Delaware, in the other hand, have lost too much southern culture to firmly be confirmed a southern state. Yes I understand history,
But currently, they just aren't as southern. But if you only make those two mid Atlantic, it is no longer reasonable to make a region out of two states. That's why, I would say Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey, and Delaware can be considered mid Atlantic, occasionally New York and Virginia. Btw, 2/3 of MD is actually north. This is also proof of the mason Dixon being inaccurate. Point is, MD is not Boston, nor Nashville. It is impossible to put it in one region, since it doesn't have enough qualities of either. That's why I would call it, the mid-Atlantic.

OK, I'll respect your opinion, but I will continue to refrain from using "Mid-Atlantic" because it is generally defined as the part of the northeastern U.S. that is not New England. You say that the midland is not the south, but it is important to remember that it is not the north either (the only way that Maryland can be 2/3 "north" is if midland=north). I understand your grouping of those four states when talking about the Philadelphia area (MD is actually a part of this in its northeasternmost county, an exurb of Philly), but the tidewater heritage of 13 MD counties is not to be ignored. The state is best broken up:

(3) Garrett, Allegany, Washington: Similar to Appalachian SW PA and WV

(4) Frederick, Carroll, Balt. Co, Harford: similar to bordering areas of Southern PA (though Frederick county could be seen as similar to Loudoun Co., VA).

(1) Cecil: influenced by northern DE

(8) other eastern shore counties: tidewater culture more similar to VA than PA; lower DE is like a more diluted version of this.

(3) So. MD counties: like nearby eastern VA.

(4) Howard, Montgomery, AA and PG counties: contain the geographic (PG) center of the state, lots of suburbanization, sunbeltish with transplants from all over the country, wealthier (AA less so). What most people "think of" when they think of Maryland.

(1) Baltimore City: all on its own.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by ialmostforgot

Midland accents are equally distinct from northern and southern accents. They lack northern characteristics such as the northern cities vowel shift and lack southern characteristics such as monophthongization of long "i" (when "time" is pronounced like "tahm"). When mostly midland accents may exhibit some northern or southern characteristics, they are categorized separately from the main midland group. The Delaware valley accent is sometimes called "east midland" for this reason (they have northern and southern characteristics). The Baltimore accent is sometimes called a "south midland" accent because of its southern characteristics that most midland accents lack.

Cow,

This ^^^

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by ialmostforgot

OK, I'll respect your opinion, but I will continue to refrain from using "Mid-Atlantic" because it is generally defined as the part of the northeastern U.S. that is not New England. You say that the midland is not the south, but it is important to remember that it is not the north either (the only way that Maryland can be 2/3 "north" is if midland=north). I understand your grouping of those four states when talking about the Philadelphia area (MD is actually a part of this in its northeasternmost county, an exurb of Philly), but the tidewater heritage of 13 MD counties is not to be ignored. The state is best broken up:

(3) Garrett, Allegany, Washington: Similar to Appalachian SW PA and WV

(4) Frederick, Carroll, Balt. Co, Harford: similar to bordering areas of Southern PA (though Frederick county could be seen as similar to Loudoun Co., VA).

(1) Cecil: influenced by northern DE

(8) other eastern shore counties: tidewater culture more similar to VA than PA; lower DE is like a more diluted version of this.

(3) So. MD counties: like nearby eastern VA.

(4) Howard, Montgomery, AA and PG counties: contain the geographic (PG) center of the state, lots of suburbanization, sunbeltish with transplants from all over the country, wealthier (AA less so). What most people "think of" when they think of Maryland.

(1) Baltimore City: all on its own.

Throw Washington county in with Frederick et al. and I am on board. The land is still dominated by large fertile valleys, farms are the dominate land use, and the PA culture is more the central "Dutchy" type than S.W. PA culture in my opinion.

To me the transition zone in PA is roughly the Allegheny Front. Bedford Co. still has a "dutchy" flavor to it.......much less so in Somerset County to its west.

[sniffablecow]

Originally Posted by ialmostforgot

Midland accents are equally distinct from northern and southern accents. They lack northern characteristics such as the northern cities vowel shift and lack southern characteristics such as monophthongization of long "i" (when "time" is pronounced like "tahm"). When mostly midland accents may exhibit some northern or southern characteristics, they are categorized separately from the main midland group. The Delaware valley accent is sometimes called "east midland" for this reason (they have northern and southern characteristics). The Baltimore accent is sometimes called a "south midland" accent because of its southern characteristics that most midland accents lack.

Well, I was born and raised in Maryland, and when I visit people in California, they say I sound normal. I go up north, they say I sound neutral, when I go south, I'm a Yankee. I'm just curious why this is :P

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by sniffablecow

Well, I was born and raised in Maryland, and when I visit people in California, they say I sound normal. I go up north, they say I sound neutral, when I go south, I'm a Yankee. I'm just curious why this is :P

Because you likely speak a dialect of English that is close to Standard American......a Midland dlalect based more less around the speech of Nebraska and Iowa.

There are some people who manage to be nearly entirely "dialect neutral" meaning they are so close to the standard they have no "tells" as to their place of birth. In my experience, these are almost always Army brat types that have lived all over the place and thus lack a set of diagnostic speech elements that indicate they are from any one area...........which of course they aren't.

As for you personally, maybe you have a very neutral personal dialect (idiolect.) This wouldn't be unreasonable since so much of Maryland is transplant country and full of various dialects from everywhere (creating a bit of a parallel to the "Army brat" situation; a person from "nowhere" as far as regional dialect is concerned.)

It is also possible (and probably more likely) that you have "tells" in your idiolect too, but they are subtle to the untrained ear and go unnoticed.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by sniffablecow

I'll reply to the dialect map first... There are many dialect maps, I usually don't take them serious all the time. But there was one map that showed how MD dialect is actually spread out. It showed the DC area having a midland dialect (mix or no accent), Baltimore area having a Delaware valley dialect (Baltimore, Wilmington, philly) western MD having a Appalachian, and southern and eastern shore having a a tidewater (type of southern accent). But the majority of it had a midland accent.

Yes, it's generally good to take dialect maps with a grain of salt, as the borders between dialects (isolglosses) are generally far from exact, especially in the United States. TESLUR and the ANAE are probably the best sources for information on US dialects, as they are the product of years of research by the University of PA and Dr. William Labov.

I think you might be thinking of Aschmann's dialect map American English Dialects. As Aschmann freely admits his study of American English linguistics is a hobby. That's not to say he's necessarily wrong in his isoglosses, he's put a lot of time and effort into this map and used TESLUR and ANAE as part of his data. But this map seems to be the one passed around the internet the most and I've seen it used on CityData to 'prove' this or that, and I think people should realize that dialect maps are not 100% reliable, that lines are by no means exact, and that probably most the dialect maps you see on google images aren't from professional sources.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

It is also possible (and probably more likely) that you have "tells" in your idiolect too, but they are subtle to the untrained ear and go unnoticed.

There's definitely a lot of very subtle 'tells' that people don't perceive most of the time.
For example I would imagine most people in Maryland would claim they don't monopthongize "time" [taɪm] to "tahm" [taːm], but I actually here this quite a lot since I've been trained to distinguish phones. It's just by far not as exaggerated or stereotypical as people expect.
At the same time, I've heard people with clear southern accents in the DC area who say "Warshinton", I think of an inserted R here to be very midland-y (though probably not conforming to General American).
Another thing is the "O" sound, as in "soda", and the "au" sound in "out and about". Marylanders in general have a unique way of pronouncing these vowels where they're higher and fronter in the mouth, but interestingly I've also noticed this pronunciation very strongly in both Tidewater southern and South-Central Pennsylvanian speakers.

[SeanSR81]

Originally Posted by sniffablecow

I have driven, but not stopped by for a long time. Is it a lot like Eastern Shore.

I can only speak for the northern part of the county but i reminds me of the country side of Virginia.

[sniffablecow]

Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca

There's definitely a lot of very subtle 'tells' that people don't perceive most of the time.
For example I would imagine most people in Maryland would claim they don't monopthongize "time" [taɪm] to "tahm" [taːm], but I actually here this quite a lot since I've been trained to distinguish phones. It's just by far not as exaggerated or stereotypical as people expect.
At the same time, I've heard people with clear southern accents in the DC area who say "Warshinton", I think of an inserted R here to be very midland-y (though probably not conforming to General American).
Another thing is the "O" sound, as in "soda", and the "au" sound in "out and about". Marylanders in general have a unique way of pronouncing these vowels where they're higher and fronter in the mouth, but interestingly I've also noticed this pronunciation very strongly in both Tidewater southern and South-Central Pennsylvanian speakers.

Well, what part of the DC area? Because Fort Washington is closer to southern Maryland if I had to be honest. Anyway, I see what you mean, but I know for a fact I do not say tahm. I live in northern PG, (bowie), and we say time, not tahm. One thing I notice a lot here is how people say "on". It more like "awn" than "ahn". People tell me most people dont say on like dawn, so maybe that is one thing. Also, my friend in NC says caught and cot are the same, but they are not, so maybe that is another thing. It is funny because, when I go to phoenixville PA, I sound like a nuetral person, but all of a sudden, when I go to georgia, Im a bostonian, which I am surely not.