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Old 09-18-2009, 09:06 PM
 
Location: N/A
1,359 posts, read 3,370,962 times
Reputation: 572

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Quote:
Originally Posted by irvine View Post
I dread that day and hope it never happens, but because of it's history, customs, cuisine, and the remaining multi-generational natives, Maryland will always be Southern in my opinion. In a couple generations, many Marylanders and Virginians may not be familiar with spoonbread, Maryland beaten biscuits, or smithfield ham. And the anti-Northern Maryland State song might eventually be retired and become "state song emeritus." But the past, as memorialized in monuments, museums, history books and the family stories passed down from generation to generation will not deny the state's very important Southern heritage and cultural legacy. (And I suppose family recipes will survive, so spoonbread may not completely disappear.) Southerners whether in Maryland, Virginia, or North Carolina, etc have always been uniquely drawn to the past, so as the culture of the South changes and becomes less distinct, I believe this obsession with history will continue to provide some definition for the South as a region. The South will inevitably become less "Southern" but it's "historical borders" should not change due to the whims of a "newer" generation. The Mason-Dixon Line is still a very appropriate boundary, as Southern culture never existed north of it, and it still does to varying degrees south of it.
Why are we constantly rehashing the same (debunked) points? If Maryland can't be called a Northern state, it sure can't be called a Southern one either. However, it seems that no one (unsurprisingly) is willing to accept the Mid-Atlantic compromise. Anyway, instead of personal experiences and history from nearly 150 years ago, how about we focus on the state as it is now?

So, you speak with a Southern drawl and eat spoonbread, Maryland beaten biscuits, and Smithfield ham. I don't even know what those things are. Have you heard of a hoagie, or scrapple? These are regional foods popular in Maryland (particularly in Baltimore), New Jersey, and Pennsylvania? Have you ever been to a restaurant in Little Italy (Baltimore)? There is no Southern city that has a (sizeable) Little Italy. There are also no Southern cities that have the elegant brownstones that you see in Mt. Vernon, and no Southern cities that mimic the culture, accent, layout, industrial history, or density of Baltimore. Yes, you and others have had these "Southern experiences," but you're POV isn't shared by the majority of people living in the state. Look at that long post I put up, and see which states Maryland shares the most with.

 
Old 09-18-2009, 09:29 PM
 
Location: N/A
1,359 posts, read 3,370,962 times
Reputation: 572
I have the feeling most people didn't feel like reading my extremely long post (I wouldn't either). I was supposed to write a summary, but didn't feel like it at the time.

In the categories of Economy, Wealth, Politics, Environmental Awareness, Education, Population Density, Transportation, and Race (accent is subjective) the closest Southern state was Virginia, but the closest states overall were Northeastern states. The only category in which Maryland ranked closer to Southern states over Northeastern states was race in terms of percentage of Afircan-Americans and percenatage of Whites*. However, in terms of percentage of Asians Maryland ranked with Northeastern states.

Overall, New Jersey was the closest state to Maryland, almost always ranking within 3 spots of it. Connecticut and Massachusetts were also strongly tied to Maryland, the latter particularly in the Economy and Education categories. Virginia (the closest Southern state) was only close to Maryland in one Economic and one Education ranking, and every other Southern state was almost always far removed from Maryland, except in the Race category mentioned above. Take what you want and draw your own conclusions, but these are unopinionated hard facts from government and research institutions...


*As a side note the relatively high percentage of blacks is due to Maryland always attracting black residents (particularly those of higher education) for most of it's history. During the Great Migration Maryland attracted blacks while the Southern states lost blacks, but during the Second Great Migration Maryland still attracted blacks while the Northern states lost blacks.
 
Old 09-18-2009, 11:42 PM
 
518 posts, read 1,325,269 times
Reputation: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
Why are we constantly rehashing the same (debunked) points? If Maryland can't be called a Northern state, it sure can't be called a Southern one either. However, it seems that no one (unsurprisingly) is willing to accept the Mid-Atlantic compromise. Anyway, instead of personal experiences and history from nearly 150 years ago, how about we focus on the state as it is now?
Wow. So you claim the points I've brought up have been "debunked" as you say? In each of my previous posts I've provided facts based on experience that does "reflect the state as it is" as well as academic research that reflects the state as it was and as it currently is. And I mean no disrespect if this sounds harsh, but you need to learn that in a state as complex as Maryland, or anywhere where people are particularly defensive of their regional history and culture, that compromise, when it comes to cultural identity is an unreachable goal. I realize that, and I respect those who consider Maryland "Mid-Atlantic" or something else, but I do strongly disagree with that assessment, and in a thread that asks a legitimate question I will provide my views.

And while I have not put the time into reading every single post in this long, drawn out thread (which I stumbled upon last week), of those that I read, I can say without a doubt that the points I made in defense of my arguments are unique within this thread. So I disagree with you, that I am "rehashing the same debunked points."

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
So, you speak with a Southern drawl and eat spoonbread, Maryland beaten biscuits, and Smithfield ham. I don't even know what those things are. Have you heard of a hoagie, or scrapple? These are regional foods popular in Maryland (particularly in Baltimore), New Jersey, and Pennsylvania? Have you ever been to a restaurant in Little Italy (Baltimore)? There is no Southern city that has a (sizeable) Little Italy. There are also no Southern cities that have the elegant brownstones that you see in Mt. Vernon, and no Southern cities that mimic the culture, accent, layout, industrial history, or density of Baltimore. Yes, you and others have had these "Southern experiences," but you're POV isn't shared by the majority of people living in the state. Look at that long post I put up, and see which states Maryland shares the most with.
And yes, I did read the data that you posted, and I responded to that in a previous post. Here's the first paragraph of my response: "I am not a fan of the 'shrinking South theory' which can be argued in terms of current demographic trends and other facts: political party affiliation, wealth, ethnicity, transportation infrastructure, etc. Based on just such an argument, I've heard far too often that Florida is no longer Southern, or Atlanta is no longer Southern, or DC or Richmond are no longer Southern, etc... It does little to explain the culture and heritage of a region, while it simply provides a cursory and convenient description of a place for some." I then debunked your comment on St. Mary's County.

Haha. Hoagies. Yes I know Baltimore very well; I've been to Little Italy many times, and Baltimore is one of my favorite cities. And sure, you or anyone can draw similarities between Baltimore and NY or Philadelphia in terms of food, architecture, or whatever. And others can draw similarities between Baltimore and Richmond and DC, and yes, even New Orleans (but that requires more explanation) on any number of topics.

So, you can call Maryland or Baltimore "Northern" or "Mid-Atlantic" (the compromise you proposed) if that floats your boat, and you can bring out your statistical data. But as I said that will do little to convince those who disagree with you.

This debate will most likely live on in this thread and others, and we'll all just have to agree to disagree. Sorry if you find that unacceptable.

I do find these cultural discussions quite interesting, and a few years ago a panel discussion that was hosted by Kojo Nnamdi of DC's NPR affiliate WAMU debated whether or not DC was still culturally "Southern." There were interesting views on all sides of the discussion,... and of course there was no significant compromise of views.

Last edited by irvine; 09-19-2009 at 12:20 AM..
 
Old 09-19-2009, 10:26 AM
 
Location: N/A
1,359 posts, read 3,370,962 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by irvine View Post
I realize that, and I respect those who consider Maryland "Mid-Atlantic" or something else, but I do strongly disagree with that assessment, and in a thread that asks a legitimate question I will provide my views... and of course there was no significant compromise of views...This debate will most likely live on in this thread and others, and we'll all just have to agree to disagree.
Not to criticize you, but herein lies the general problem--the reason why this thread will be never-ending, and my if does end someone will unknowingly start an identical one a week from now. There was actually a similarily long thread (for DE and MD) on the General US forum, which finally ended after an overwhelming number of posters classified MD and DE as Northeastern, and the one guy who differed gave up.

Quote:
So I disagree with you, that I am "rehashing the same debunked
points."
I was talking about the Civil War (and prior) history and the state song, which seems to be sole argument (apart from cultural influences in some parts of the state) to call Maryland unequivocally Southern.

Quote:
"I am not a fan of the 'shrinking South theory' which can be argued in terms of current demographic trends and other facts: political party affiliation, wealth, ethnicity, transportation infrastructure, etc. Based on just such an argument, I've heard far too often that Florida is no longer Southern, or Atlanta is no longer Southern, or DC or Richmond are no longer Southern, etc... It does little to explain the culture and heritage of a region, while it simply provides a cursory and convenient description of a place for some." I then debunked your comment on St. Mary's County.

Well, Atlanta isn't a state, and I don't think one person on this planet could deny the fact that Georgia is Southern. In fact Atlanta itself is still Southern. You will find people in the city with Southern accents, and just the way in which the city is laid out and the style of the older buildings gives it a Southerness. IMO everything North of Orlando (ironically) is Southern, especially the panhandle. Obviously Florida is still in the geographic South, although Maryland isn't. You also can't ignore demographic data, especially when it ties the states in the South and Northeast together so well.

Quote:
Haha. Hoagies. Yes I know Baltimore very well; I've been to Little Italy many times, and Baltimore is one of my favorite cities. And sure, you or anyone can draw similarities between Baltimore and NY or Philadelphia in terms of food, architecture, or whatever. And others can draw similarities between Baltimore and Richmond and DC, and yes, even New Orleans (but that requires more explanation) on any number of topics.
There are many other reasons other than the ones I posted that ties Baltimore to the North, but very few (if any) that ties Balt. to the South. Can you really honestly say that Baltimore resembles Richmond (of all cities), Atlanta, or Charlotte more than Philadelphia or Newark? DC is also widely considered part of the Northeast, and is the start of the Bos-Was megapolis. Even historically, going back to the Civil War, DC differed from cities just across in Virginia significantly.
 
Old 09-19-2009, 10:55 AM
 
Location: central North Carolina
62 posts, read 154,809 times
Reputation: 88
Exclamation read the posts more carefully

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
However, it seems that no one (unsurprisingly) is willing to accept the Mid-Atlantic compromise.
Did you even read my reply? I said that I consider MD MidAtlantic. Go back and read the post.

I do have a question though. The demographics, culture, politics and economy of WV is much much closer to the South than it is with the MidAtlantic.
But you seem to think it's debatable as well.
I think the best category for West Virginia is "Appalachia", as the entire state is in Appalachia.

It is interesting how Virginia is becoming very similar to Maryland today even though historically, West Virginia was closer to Maryland.

BTW, did anyone know that east Tennessee almost pulled a "West Virginia" during the Civil War? There were more Union soldiers from east Tennessee than the whole created state of West Virginia. TN 'behaved' more like a border state than any other Confederate state. Yet TN is a solid Southern state.
Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System
 
Old 09-19-2009, 02:18 PM
 
542 posts, read 1,332,287 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCnut View Post
BTW, did anyone know that east Tennessee almost pulled a "West Virginia" during the Civil War? There were more Union soldiers from east Tennessee than the whole created state of West Virginia. TN 'behaved' more like a border state than any other Confederate state. Yet TN is a solid Southern state.
Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System
Yes, definitely. I think people would be very surprised about East Tennessee. I was a little worried at first, but it's a great place.

As for your previous post, I think that a homogeneous America where everyone speaks and thinks the same, etc. is already happening, unfortunately. But I also think that the cultures on the Atlantic seaboard already have a lot more in common than people give them credit for.

Oh and though hoagies are native to the Philadelphia area, they can be found everywhere these days. And scrapple is also a supposed native/popular food in Virginia, as well. Though in my time in Maryland, I've never heard or seen anyone eat scrapple before. Only saw a sign about it once in Glen Burnie. The thing is with enough thorough comparisons, Baltimore can be similar to alot of cities. But it's important to remember that the city isn't representative of the entire state.
 
Old 09-19-2009, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Warner Robins, GA
919 posts, read 2,346,533 times
Reputation: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyserSoze View Post
Yes, definitely. I think people would be very surprised about East Tennessee. I was a little worried at first, but it's a great place.

As for your previous post, I think that a homogeneous America where everyone speaks and thinks the same, etc. is already happening, unfortunately. But I also think that the cultures on the Atlantic seaboard already have a lot more in common than people give them credit for.

Oh and though hoagies are native to the Philadelphia area, they can be found everywhere these days. And scrapple is also a supposed native/popular food in Virginia, as well. Though in my time in Maryland, I've never heard or seen anyone eat scrapple before. Only saw a sign about it once in Glen Burnie. The thing is with enough thorough comparisons, Baltimore can be similar to alot of cities. But it's important to remember that the city isn't representative of the entire state.
I was born and raised in MD and have eaten scrapple since I was a little kid... I always thought it was poor people food...
 
Old 09-19-2009, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
5,304 posts, read 8,572,158 times
Reputation: 3767
My grandma, who lived all of her life in the same small mining village her family was from, had intrusive "r"s all over the place. Not only was it Warshinton, but

oil was prounced earl
soil was serl
boil was berl, etc.

She didn't have the dipthong in "about" though. Her pronouciation was somewhere in between "abut" and "aboot." The instrusive "r"s seem to be on the decline out here in Western Maryland but the shortening of the dipthong in "about" is still an accurate way to identify someone from the western part of Allegany County.
 
Old 09-19-2009, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,331 posts, read 2,850,791 times
Reputation: 1485
Actually, West Virginia was quite different from Maryland and the other border states in terms of the Civil War.
Russell Weigley on West Virginia (West Virginia - The Other History)
It was the only one that did not give a majority of troops to the Union, according to recent research. People are unaware of the large numbers of PA and OH residents who made up WV Union regiments, well over one-quarter.
There has been another Southern study from the UNC just published in Southeastern Geographer. Unfortunately the article itself is not available online, I could only find a blog that wrote about it. You might be able to access the article through your local library.
Outlying Islands of Shrinking Dixie « Far Outliers
 
Old 09-20-2009, 11:01 AM
 
Location: N/A
1,359 posts, read 3,370,962 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCnut View Post
Did you even read my reply? I said that I consider MD MidAtlantic. Go back and read the post.
I know, I didn't mean everybody, but the fact that this thread still soldiers on means that not everybody is fine with the Mid-Atlantic designation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCnut View Post
I do have a question though. The demographics, culture, politics and economy of WV is much much closer to the South than it is with the MidAtlantic.
But you seem to think it's debatable as well.
I think the best category for West Virginia is "Appalachia", as the entire state is in Appalachia.
I agree. To me, West Virginia is probably the hardest state in this country to classify (Texas and Missouri are others), as it is only "Southern" in the lower parts of the states. I heard somwhere that West Virgninians prefer to be called "Mountaineers" rather than Southerners, but even then a few people group it as Northeastern, one example being the UMC which groups it MD, DE, and DC in the NE Conference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCnut View Post
It is interesting how Virginia is becoming very similar to Maryland today even though historically, West Virginia was closer to Maryland.
Two words: DC Area

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCnut View Post
BTW, did anyone know that east Tennessee almost pulled a "West Virginia" during the Civil War? There were more Union soldiers from east Tennessee than the whole created state of West Virginia. TN 'behaved' more like a border state than any other Confederate state. Yet TN is a solid Southern state.
Civil War Soldiers and Sailors System
There were split opinions in many states. Even Ohio (the state where many say the KKK was strongest), was divided. Cinicinnati was strongly pro-Confederate. Some Southern states even had a limited number of residents fighting for the Union. One of the main reasons the counties of West Va., West Md., Pennsylvania were so strongly pro-Union is because they had virtually no slaves. There wasn't any need for any up in the mountains, and the crops for which where slaves were used, didn't do as well the further north you went.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
My grandma, who lived all of her life in the same small mining village her family was from, had intrusive "r"s all over the place. Not only was it Warshinton, but

oil was prounced earl
soil was serl
boil was berl, etc.

She didn't have the dipthong in "about" though. Her pronouciation was somewhere in between "abut" and "aboot." The instrusive "r"s seem to be on the decline out here in Western Maryland but the shortening of the dipthong in "about" is still an accurate way to identify someone from the western part of Allegany County.
The conductors on the Brunswick Line MARC train I take mostly in Western MD and West Virginia (where the line starts), and I've definitely noticed the Warsh in Washintgon. It's pretty humourous hearing them say it. At least half of them have strong Western MD/West Va. accents while the other half have "normal" MD accents.
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