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Old 09-02-2009, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Montgomery Village, MD
516 posts, read 1,250,495 times
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Good luck in your search. I think it's a personal decision every parent needs to research and make for themselves.


As for those who insist it's stupid to not vaccinate, do some research, there are very valid concerns.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:15 AM
 
11 posts, read 33,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaecho View Post
Good luck in your search. I think it's a personal decision every parent needs to research and make for themselves.


As for those who insist it's stupid to not vaccinate, do some research, there are very valid concerns.
I wish it could simply be a personal decision. Then parents would only be risking the health and lives of their own children. But vaccines are not (and unlikely to ever be) 100% effective at protecting against disease. The reality is that vaccinations are a public safety issue - which is why governments regulate its use.

As for risks of vaccination, everything I've seen is based on anecdotes and pseudo-science. Feel free to show me otherwise.

Last edited by dmcgoy; 09-03-2009 at 07:43 AM..
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Old 09-03-2009, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Columbia, MD
553 posts, read 1,542,940 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcgoy View Post
I wish it could simply be a personal decision. Then parents would only be risking the health and lives of their own children. But vaccines are not (and unlikely to ever be) 100% effective at protecting against disease. The reality is that vaccinations are a public safety issue - which is why governments regulate its use.

As for risks of vaccination, everything I've seen is based on anecdotes and pseudo-science. Feel free to show me otherwise.
Mostly correct. The autism thing has pretty much been definitively debunked.

There are, however, a lot of unknowns with vaccines. Unknowns about how they interact, and what the impact of the inactive ingredients are. There is no strong push by the government or by pharma to investigate possible side effects, so it remains an unknown. Also there are a lot of vaccines given and it's not entirely clear from long term studies which ones are or are not important yet.

As you point out though, it is a public safety issue. Parents who do not vaccine are unfairly demonized, but IMO, if you make that decision, you do not have a right to put your children around other infants and children who could be affected. Until the science can provide answers, the best one is to vaccinate your children, OR you keep them pretty much isolated from others.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:23 PM
 
11 posts, read 33,979 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by trickymost View Post
There are, however, a lot of unknowns with vaccines. Unknowns about how they interact, and what the impact of the inactive ingredients are. There is no strong push by the government or by pharma to investigate possible side effects, so it remains an unknown. Also there are a lot of vaccines given and it's not entirely clear from long term studies which ones are or are not important yet.
Life is full of unknowns. There are lots of chemicals/compounds in our food, plastics, water supply, clothing, air, and so forth whose effects on human development, health, and disease pathogenesis, are unknown or poorly understood. I don't understand why vaccines should be singled out.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Columbia, MD
553 posts, read 1,542,940 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcgoy View Post
Life is full of unknowns. There are lots of chemicals/compounds in our food, plastics, water supply, clothing, air, and so forth whose effects on human development, health, and disease pathogenesis, are unknown or poorly understood. I don't understand why vaccines should be singled out.
For that matter, why bother with clinical trials for new drugs or why bother researching the effects of smoking?

Parents are told you must vaccinate your kids or else they can't attend daycare, they can't attend schools, and they will risk infection and disease. Fair enough.

But there are no explanations given for why some of these vaccines are necessary nor is research and testing done to determine safety.

We will see how you and others feel about vaccines this fall/winter when the government forces everyone to be vaccinated for H1N1 or else risk being fined and placed in public detention centers. Mind you thesoe vaccines have not been tested at all so safety is completely unknown, nor is it likely any vaccine will protect against a mutated and virulent version of the virus.

I am prepared to be quarantined along with my family rather than get vaccinated for no reason.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
5,268 posts, read 8,496,507 times
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Wow Tricky, props for debating the vaccine issue without resorting to conspiracy theories or name calling. The FDA makes sure that all vaccines and vaccine combinations are rigorously tested before they are approved. The risks they find are clearly stated on pamphlets handed out at the doctor's office. Vaccines are at least as safe as other medicines on the market. Every medical procedure has risks associated with it. I will take the risks of vaccines over the risks of polio, measles, mumps, diptheria, whooping cough, and those bactaria that cause meningitis and pnemonia whose names escape me.

Influzena is a little different. The virus is dangerous to small children, the elderly, and those with existing medical conditions. The risk to healthy adults is pretty low. Also, the vaccine often misses the seasonal strain, and even when they guess right the vaccine is only 70-90% effective at preventing infection. That being said, getting the flu sucks. I think if most people knew what the "flu" really was and how it made you feel, they would get the vaccine. But it is not mandatory for the reasons stated above.

Are people who don't get the Swine flu vaccine going to get locked up? I know some employers and schools may mandate it.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:26 PM
 
102 posts, read 279,497 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Many schools accept the exemption - it is a parental choice. And you arent putting anyone else child at risk - if they choose to inject toxins into their child then they should be so-called protected right?
Learn some scientific facts. Your child puts everyone including YOU at risk and your child is at risk. You made a great choice.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:40 PM
 
11 posts, read 33,979 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by trickymost View Post
For that matter, why bother with clinical trials for new drugs or why bother researching the effects of smoking?

Parents are told you must vaccinate your kids or else they can't attend daycare, they can't attend schools, and they will risk infection and disease. Fair enough.

But there are no explanations given for why some of these vaccines are necessary nor is research and testing done to determine safety.

We will see how you and others feel about vaccines this fall/winter when the government forces everyone to be vaccinated for H1N1 or else risk being fined and placed in public detention centers. Mind you thesoe vaccines have not been tested at all so safety is completely unknown, nor is it likely any vaccine will protect against a mutated and virulent version of the virus.

I am prepared to be quarantined along with my family rather than get vaccinated for no reason.
Your third paragraph: You think that vaccines aren't thoroughly tested? On what basis or evidence? They're tested to a tremendously high standard - since nearly every child will receive it. I don't know how much explanation your pediatrician gave you, but there's plenty of info out there: Vaccines: HOME page for Vaccines and Immunizations site

Four paragraph: Flaming strawman (Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) here! A bit paranoid eh? Which pirate radio station is your source for this info? The CDC says the swine flu vaccines are being clinically tested (like all vaccines): CDC H1N1 Flu | Questions & Answers Novel H1N1 Influenza Vaccine
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Old 09-04-2009, 04:39 AM
 
Location: Columbia, MD
553 posts, read 1,542,940 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcgoy View Post
Your third paragraph: You think that vaccines aren't thoroughly tested? On what basis or evidence? They're tested to a tremendously high standard - since nearly every child will receive it. I don't know how much explanation your pediatrician gave you, but there's plenty of info out there: Vaccines: HOME page for Vaccines and Immunizations site

Four paragraph: Flaming strawman (Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) here! A bit paranoid eh? Which pirate radio station is your source for this info? The CDC says the swine flu vaccines are being clinically tested (like all vaccines): CDC H1N1 Flu | Questions & Answers Novel H1N1 Influenza Vaccine
Ok, I'll bite. On swine flu, this is no longer tin foil hat stuff. Look at what Massachusetts passed on swine flu legislation...$1,000 a day fines and forced quarantines and jailtime for not getting the flu shot? http://www.youtube.com/v/2_oD55WvDmM

I'm not arguing vaccines in particular don't provide immunity to a specific virus or illness. I'm saying, and this has been conclusively shown, is that vaccines are a high-risk, low-profit business. This is why anytime there is an influenza outbreak, there is a risk of not having supply to immunize the young and elderly. This is why the stimulus plan gave them was it 7B or 8B so we don't have flu shot shortages. For those reasons the clinical studies are smaller and less broad in scope even though the vaccine may be given to far more people than a Viagra or a Lipitor.

You may want to read about adjuvants on wikipedia: Immunologic adjuvant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second, a better resource for vaccine information on children is from Dr. Sears, who advocates vaccines (as I do) and also explains the risks (which there are plenty). He wrote a book on it, which is probably the best source for parents out there. if you follow this link you'll see a routine vaccine has had its formulation change and there's nothing showing how extensive the trials on the new version of the old vaccine are:

AskDrSears - The Vaccine Book (http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/ - broken link)

Finally, if you think drugs are safe when they're put on the market, you must be living under a rock. There's a reason why drug research is called drug discovery. Many drugs and their treatments were found accidentally. Viagra and Propecia were side-effects discovered on experimental cardiology/vascular drugs. It took the makers of Tylenol over 100 years to figure out some of its effects on the liver. Vaccines are no different. Despite all our research there is still a lot of magic in the process and it's moronic to assume if it's on the market, it's safe. Lots of lawyers have become quite rich because of failures in the clinical research process.

And in conclusion, I vaccinate my kids but I don't like all the unknowns. And like the OP is unrealistic for expecting an unvaccinated child should be routinely exposed to non-vaccinated children, it's unfair how parents are demonized by large pharmaceuticals companies which 1) haven't done full due diligence on their products because of low profit margin and 2) like tobacco companies won't admit there may be risks from the adjuvants in their vaccines.

Last edited by trickymost; 09-04-2009 at 04:48 AM..
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:14 AM
 
11 posts, read 33,979 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by trickymost View Post
Ok, I'll bite. On swine flu, this is no longer tin foil hat stuff. Look at what Massachusetts passed on swine flu legislation...$1,000 a day fines and forced quarantines and jailtime for not getting the flu shot? http://www.youtube.com/v/2_oD55WvDmM

I'm not arguing vaccines in particular don't provide immunity to a specific virus or illness. I'm saying, and this has been conclusively shown, is that vaccines are a high-risk, low-profit business. This is why anytime there is an influenza outbreak, there is a risk of not having supply to immunize the young and elderly. This is why the stimulus plan gave them was it 7B or 8B so we don't have flu shot shortages. For those reasons the clinical studies are smaller and less broad in scope even though the vaccine may be given to far more people than a Viagra or a Lipitor.

You may want to read about adjuvants on wikipedia: Immunologic adjuvant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second, a better resource for vaccine information on children is from Dr. Sears, who advocates vaccines (as I do) and also explains the risks (which there are plenty). He wrote a book on it, which is probably the best source for parents out there. if you follow this link you'll see a routine vaccine has had its formulation change and there's nothing showing how extensive the trials on the new version of the old vaccine are:

AskDrSears - The Vaccine Book (http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/ - broken link)

Finally, if you think drugs are safe when they're put on the market, you must be living under a rock. There's a reason why drug research is called drug discovery. Many drugs and their treatments were found accidentally. Viagra and Propecia were side-effects discovered on experimental cardiology/vascular drugs. It took the makers of Tylenol over 100 years to figure out some of its effects on the liver. Vaccines are no different. Despite all our research there is still a lot of magic in the process and it's moronic to assume if it's on the market, it's safe. Lots of lawyers have become quite rich because of failures in the clinical research process.

And in conclusion, I vaccinate my kids but I don't like all the unknowns. And like the OP is unrealistic for expecting an unvaccinated child should be routinely exposed to non-vaccinated children, it's unfair how parents are demonized by large pharmaceuticals companies which 1) haven't done full due diligence on their products because of low profit margin and 2) like tobacco companies won't admit there may be risks from the adjuvants in their vaccines.
1: From the quick reading I've done, it's a bill that has passed one branch of the MA government and authorizes the levying of a fine if a person refuses an official order to be quarantined. You still don't have to take the flu vaccine. This seems reasonable. If there is a full-out pandemic, you'll need to have some big sticks to prevent people from wandering around continuing to effect the population.

2: Vaccines for viruses (flu) are certainly tricky. I've never had a flu vaccine since they are based upon epidemiologists guessing which strains will be most prevalent. Their track record is mediocre, so far. They only reduce, moderately, the risk of getting ill. I may take the H1N1 vaccine when it becomes available, since this particular strain has some staying power.

3. I know about adjuvants. They don't scare me at all. Why? Because strange chemicals and compounds are constantly entering our body from our manufactured world. It's not like we are living in some pristine world, swaddled in our blankets hand knitted with wool from our sheep grazing in our communal range, drinking from our wells uncontaminated by sewage or pharmaceuticals, etc etc.

4: Just because he's a doctor, doesn't mean what he says is gold. I've briefly read a few of his postings and he seems to understand what's going on, but he unnecessarily promotes sensationalism and fear into his statements. Like this one:

"HIB vaccine is designed to prevent HIB meningitis, a severe disease that only affects about 25 U.S. infants and young children each year (it used to run rampant back in the 1980s, but has now all but been eliminated)."

He's implying that since HIB has nearly been eliminated, it's silly and risky to continue administering the vaccine. Which is patently false.

In short, always beware the guru. Including me, if I'm coming off as one.

5: Drugs have risk. Everyone is a unique bag of fluids influenced by our 3e9 pieces of DNA, the epigenetic marks on those As, Ts, Gs, Cs, and the environment. People can suffer adverse reactions from taking drugs. People can suffer adverse reactions from eating nuts.

That said drugs are, generally, safe when put on the market, if used correctly. They are tested in large, statistically significant numbers of people. Mistakes can happen. Things can be overlook. In general, they are pretty safe and an FDA approval means a lot. It's incredibly difficult to get a drug approved.

Vaccine development has little to do with how Tylenol was discovered. Vaccines are engineered to mimic the antigenic properties of the specific viruses and bacterium. This is how it's been since Edward Jenner made the smallpox vaccine, which has saved hundreds of millions of people from untimely deaths.

Are you really saying that because litigious lawyers are making money suing drug companies for complications related (notice I said related, not caused by!) to vaccinations, that vaccines are bad? By this logic, you should definitely not be driving or riding in cars. In short, lots of lawyers have become rich suing vaccine manufacturers by exploiting the terribly weak scientific understanding of the general public.

6: I'm glad you understand that vaccines are better than nothing. Of course more money and effort could be spent on developing and testing vaccines. But more money should be spent on lots of things.

Since this discussion has already pulled this thread far off topic, I suggest that if you have further questions, concerns, or arguments, you can contact me directly.

P.S. If you want something to be scared of, read more about BPAs. I suggest anyone who wants to have a baby, is carrying a baby, or has a young child do their best to reduce BPA intake. I was just at a talk where a researcher was showing how low levels of this hormone cause a tremendous spike in genomic defects during embryonic development.
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