Moving from Midwest with kids-- Watertown, Newton, Arlington, Belmont? (Boston: 2013, credit)

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by dvanbrunt

Wow, that was a well-written post! Thanks.

Not a problem. You've asked questions I've dealt with before and have pondered often. I know exactly what you're going through.

Also, I'd like to add that "desirability" traditionally brings with it more stable real estate values. This is something that I know is very important with transferees who often are not making their last move.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by dvanbrunt

Desirability is a funny thing... it's very important to us to be closer in to Boston and Cambridge than Needham or Natick... we came to enjoy Boston's offerings.

We are able to go as high at 1.2M, but would strongly prefer to stay well under that, coming from the midwest and selling a 4,700 sf house at 350k. And going right up to our limit, we've been outbid 4 times now in Newton and Arlington, even though our offer was above the asking price, and houses have gotten progressively smaller each time (half of what we left in Indiana). So for that, we'd like as much space as we can get, single family, some yard, a garage, and space with a separate entrance for setting up a small Pilates studio (just enough room for a few pieces of equipment... could be walk out basement, or other option)

Based on your wish list, I don't see how you can't nab a house at 1 million. We did a similar move from a 4000+sf house in the Midwest. I commute to Cambridge as well. We rented in Cambridge several years before buying. There was a weird spot around $600k-800k that was extremely competitive - great schools/amenities, no major work or warts, updated, etc. We encountered what you're experiencing now. So in the end, we made a choice - look higher or lower. One of my colleagues (and neighbor) looking at the same time decided to go up and stretched to buy a beautifully restored turn-key Victorian near a walkable center. They wanted square footage so it's out in Andover, but they did find similar Victorians closer in but smaller. After heating a large home in Cambridge, we used the opposite strategy and chose a smaller Edwardian house out in Concord. We, too, could have stayed closer but my wife's job in Maynard opened up the search. The house is in need of updates but has all the original details - a blank canvas with a master suite waiting to be installed in the walk-up attic. If the Watertown school system is your only major compromise and it's fine with you, I would do it. Something has to give. Finding the house that everyone else wants in Newton is going to lead to hair pulling and overpaying.

Honestly, I'll come straight out and say we thought Newton was overrated. It's a great place, but after some research, we felt that you were paying absolute top prices for 1b amenities. I talked to my colleagues who live there and sent their kids to college in the last ten years and they all steered me towards another town. The value wasn't there according to them, and they all bought over ten years ago when prices were more reasonable. It's probably a bit unfair and nitpicky, but that's what happens when you expect the "best."

ETA: My colleagues were especially "meh" about the Newton high schools. I'm not sure why, but it was prevalent in just about every one of our discussions. When I asked for more details, it was more a general feeling with random little things here and there. FWIW, we're in higher education so these subjective feelings aren't totally without warrant.

[beth98]

I would eliminate Watertown from your list. The school just don't compare to the other towns you are looking at. Many of my friend teach and every several of them live/lived in Watertown but all of them have moved out of the town either before their kids school or shortly after. I think if a teacher won't send their kids to a school that a bad sign. If you take a look at the MCAS (MA state test) scores for HS Watertown is ranked 249, 149, 139 in the state in English, Math, Science respectively. Now, compare that to Belmont (1, 7, 8), Newton's two high schools (126/50, 48/41, 36/86) and Arlington (33, 41, 98).

I find Needham a bit too sleepy personally, but it may have what you are looking for with a few trade-offs. Though I would think (and MikePru may have a better idea) that looking for a home like you described would put you more on the southwestern side of town than Needham Heights along the Newton line, which would be closer to Boston and access to Boston via the Green T line in Newton.

I'm not sure where in the mid-west you are coming from but one difference that I've noted is that the cities tend to be much larger in terms of square miles so while a suburb here may seem several towns outside Boston a similar community may be within the city limits of a mid-western city (if that makes sense)

[dvanbrunt]

wow, interesting batch of perspectives... I am definitely seeing that Newton is just insanely competitive. When folks first started gushing about the schools, I was in fact turned off by the idea of an unhealthy level of competition for the students. I don't need a kid feeling suicidal over a B-minus on a test.

So I want good schools for my kids, but as an expert in research design and statistics, I'm also skeptical of putting too much stock in test scores and rankings... to steal from a political argument, it's easy to think you've hit a triple when you're born on 3rd base (not my coinage), and the starting point for many folks in "worse" districts includes non-native English speakers and folks who are not from families where college is just a given. I want my children learning to value and appreciate different kinds of people, too, and that's not the kind of education that will show up in an MCAS score. That said, I don't want asbestos dripping from the pipes overhead, gunfire on the playground, and 20 year old textbooks, either.

[Cato the Elder]

With your budget, have you looked in Winchester? I know it would place you closer to your top end, but there is value to be found there. Though it's not on light rail, it's extremely close by car or commuter train. For some reason, it's not as hip and competitive as Newton. If not for my wife's commute, it would have been one of the few communities in our $800k+ house hunting strategy.

[Cato the Elder]

One other place we saw value was Arlington Heights. Arlington schools aren't as cut-throat and more than good enough if you're thinking about Watertown. It suffers a bit because it's compared to Lexington next door. The main issue is proximity since being close to Boston is so important to your wife. This is less of an issue if you live in East Arlington, but there's more competition and less value there since many young families from Cambridge feel it approximates their familiar lifestyles with superior schools. It would probably be too urban for you as well.

[dvanbrunt]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

With your budget, have you looked in Winchester?

Yes... not as easy a commute, though.

Plus a realtor in a house that I liked, really blew it when I sent my wife in to look... She kept following her around talking about how my wife would just love it because it's so exclusive in Winchester, and you don't have to worry about all those... well, you know it's not easy to get here so people who aren't supposed to be here can't easily get here ... and just EVERYBODY belongs to the boat club, and so you'll have to get on the waiting list right away...

Our realtor kept trying to get the listing agent to SHUT THE HELL UP, because she was not only sending my wife RUNNING from the house to the car, but scratching the entire city of Winchester off her list. Diversity is important to us.

I'm assuming the realtor was just a bat***** crazy dinosaur, and that Winchester really isn't that bad.

(or is it?)

[Cato the Elder]

In a strange way, I think this overblown perception by people who grew up in the area 20-30 years ago is what makes it a good value. You have to understand that Winchester stands out in the area because it's surrounded by Woburn, Medford, Malden, and Melrose. Most of the truly exclusive don't want to live near these other towns and go instead to places like Weston and Wellesley (with the wannabe exclusive types targeting Sudbury). These are the people your wife is trying to avoid. This puts Winchester in a bit of a no-man's land. The truly exclusive don't drive the prices to the stratosphere but most average families can't afford it as well. To me, this meant value in the elusive $600k-800k range. While I wouldn't call your typical Winchester resident an average Joe, it's more down to earth than you think (unless you're a long time resident of Melrose or Medford). For a relative newcomer to the area, I had not significant problems with Winchester. We couldn't run away from Weston fast enough, and this was BEFORE our friend who's a dean at a nearby university told us the story of how she wore a suit to her kid's soccer practice one day and a parent said, "Oh, you work, do you?"

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by dvanbrunt

Yes... not as easy a commute, though.

Plus a realtor in a house that I liked, really blew it when I sent my wife in to look... She kept following her around talking about how my wife would just love it because it's so exclusive in Winchester, and you don't have to worry about all those... well, you know it's not easy to get here so people who aren't supposed to be here can't easily get here ... and just EVERYBODY belongs to the boat club, and so you'll have to get on the waiting list right away...

Our realtor kept trying to get the listing agent to SHUT THE HELL UP, because she was not only sending my wife RUNNING from the house to the car, but scratching the entire city of Winchester off her list. Diversity is important to us.

I'm assuming the realtor was just a bat***** crazy dinosaur, and that Winchester really isn't that bad.

(or is it?)

That's pretty typical of the way Winchester is thought of around the state.

[dvanbrunt]

Originally Posted by cato the elder

we couldn't run away from weston fast enough, and this was before our friend who's a dean at a nearby university told us the story of how she wore a suit to her kid's soccer practice one day and a parent said, "oh, you work, do you?"

wow!!!