Title V (Title 5) Septic Tanks and buying a home in MA (Worcester: bank owned, short sales)

[Austin023]

I am going to be moving back to my native Massachusetts this summer and I have a question about the Title V septic tank rules. I will be buying a house in the Northampton area by late summer and as with many houses in the area, many I have looked at have septic tanks and not city sewer.
Most of the houses I have looked at are over 80 years old, many over 150 (sorry I will not consider new constriction again!---I have lived in older houses several times, always built better in my experience) and some have Title V approved, some state "not done" or "retest".

Do all purchases require a test of the septic system? Do all older systems (ie 40 years plus) require replacement? I'd like to hear various people's experiences and advice regarding this.
Cost itself for such an issue is not a huge problem for me but I would like to understand it better by way of hearing various people's advice and stories.

[wheelz]

The owner/seller is required to have a Title V inspection done. It generally falls back on the seller to repair or replace their system if it does not pass inspection. I have seen the cost of repair/replacement passed onto the buyer, which is generally taken directly out of the seller's asking price for the property. Have your own test done by a reputable company. I have been involved with Title V since its inception and there are a lot of shenanigans going on behind the scenes. Don't expect a seller to protect you when they have only their own best interest at heart. You say money is not an issue, but I have seen certain systems call for over 10,000 cubic yards of septic gravel and still require the unsightly "candy cane" pipes sticking out through the topsoil. I have seen many systems cost over 100k to install depending on the situation. Protect yourself at all costs as a buyer and pay for your own inspection and hire a company who you are paying to look out for YOU, do not trust a Realtor or the Seller. CYOA!

[cb2008]

We have septic tank that is 42 years old. We are only two adults now and we get it pumped every other year. We have the same company doing it so he is familiar with it. No problems so far. As sellers we have to get title V inspection done and we most likely will have the same guy do it. Owners have the same anxieties of getting ripped off.
Edit: either seller or buyer can pay for repairs.

[wheelz]

Yes, and it is the type of relationship you have established over the years that the potential buyer should be leery about. I have seen it first hand, pay a guy a little cash under the table and he will come out to inspect you knowing full well that you need the test to pass. I have seen that trick many, many times throughout the industry. When Title V first hit the scene, it put a ton of money in a lot of people's pockets. Where there is big money there is usually corruption taking place somewhere along the line. Buyer beware.... As an owner, especially if you plan on staying in the residence, make darn sure the sieve analysis matches the same septic gravel that is being delivered. Some towns have decent relationships with the installers and the sieve date means nothing to an inspector because he's friends with the guy doing the work. He will simply look at it and say it looks good. You cannot tell by looking at it, I have seen beautiful looking material not pass the sieve. Have your own sieve analysis done with a sample they are delivering. It will only cost you about 80 bucks, there is a place in Northboro that will do it, but I have found that Yankee Engineering out of Worcester has the best prices and fastest turn around times. I have seen dates changed and numbers on the data changed as well, so 80 bucks is well worth the investment. You need below 5% on the 200 screen for the material to pass. I personally wouldn't want material that is above 2.5% -3.0%. I have seen the material change greatly from job to job even though the material is coming from the same bank. All it takes is for the sub soil to come crashing down off of the edge of the bank to change the material. Some installers will switch material and hide the not so good stuff underneath the quality material as well. The best inspectors out there that I have found are in the town of Weston, they are difficult at times to deal with, but they definitely run a tight ship.

[Austin023]

Thanks very much for the input and advice. My family had to replace a septic system under Title V when selling a summer house on Cape Cod about 10 years ago----it was only 30 years old, seemed to work fine, etc...so it was very frustrating and I certainly can see the large opportunity for swindling. I know little about this sort of thing yet most of the houses I am looking at have septic tanks-----does the age have much influence on weather or not it must be replaced under Title V?
Are old cesspools covered under this? Does having a low water table make for more favorable conditions?

[Austin023]

I guess my question also is are there are certain situations where there is a higher risk of the Title 5 inspection failing? (such as certain soil conditions, high vs. low water table, age or layout of system?). Do cesspools typically get a 'fail' or are there exceptions?

[Austin023]

I'm restarting this tread; the house search is still in now on (had to delay until Fall) and if anyone here can answer another question I have or share their own experience I'd like to hear them!
I have looked at a bunch of listings lately, mostly older homes in a rural/semi rural part of Massachusetts (which I am native to btw) and there are at least a few which have the Title V "not done" as stated in listing. I did touch on this with my agent but I want to hear what others have to say about this:

Say you find a house you really want, the price is pretty good for what it is but the septic system has not been inspected yet as per Title V (which must be done to transfer title). The inspection is done and the system fails to pass. The seller does not have any interest or financial ability to replace the system or correct the issue to make it compliant.
Does anyone know if the costs to replace/repair generally is deducted from the sale price (or I should say used to renegotiate the sale price)?
Or is that something which me, the buyer would more likely have to consider as an added expense after purchase if I was to actually go ahead with it?
All of these houses I am looking at are owner occupied homes, no bank owned ones or short sales by the way; all are older, built in the late 1700s to early 1900s and are on 1/2 acre to 20 acres of land. One is vacant, the rest are lived in by their owners. Most have been owned by their owners for more than 15 years, so pre-Title V days I guess, some have been on the market more than 6 months (not that unusual really as it is not a high demand area, albeit very scenic).
(I am using cash for buying the house so the issue with financing in such a situation is a moot point here). I more want to know how such a situation can affect sale price, negotiation and other issues that can arise.

[gf2020]

Originally Posted by Austin023

The seller does not have any interest or financial ability to replace the system or correct the issue to make it compliant.

The seller is required by law to make the system compliant or install a new system.

If there are sufficient funds from the proceeds of the sale, those funds can be held in escrow to pay for the installation of a new system post closing.

This is a pretty common situation. Any realtor or closing attorney in the area should be familiar with the process.

[Austin023]

But what about where the seller does not have the money to bring it into compliance? Or if it is an estate sale (like heir is living elsewhere)? Can a deal be stuck so I as the buyer get to chose which company does the work?

The is one house I am interested in, no Title V inspection has been done. The owner does not live in the house now but maintains it regularly (I think it might be a case where kin died, he is heir) and not much seems to be known about the septic system...other than it has some sort of waste disposal system but we assume it is old and probably would not pass...it might even be a cesspool...are those even passable anymore? (the house I grew up in had one).

[CaseyB]

You do not want a house with a cesspool, believe me. The owner should pay to install a septic.

Low water table is good.