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Sorry, late to the party, but I read this several days ago and it's been rattling around my head and bugging me for days.
Here's the thing - while I almost want to agree with you about finding overt racism among non-upper class communities, the fact of the matter is that in those working class communities you may be more likely to actually find people of other races.
I have lived most of my life in and around desirable metrowest communities in what I call the triangle between the Charles and Mystic rivers (hence my name), and while many of those towns "value diversity", at the end of the day it's mostly white people, sometimes with east or south Asian families and kids of other races who have been adopted into white families or ride the bus from elsewhere to go to school. It almost is worse than having no non-white people to have non-white kids who look and feel marginalized. Last year at school Martin Luther King Day felt kind of weird - there were only two AA kids in the class, both adopted into white families, and according to the mom of one of them, her daughter said people kept looking at her differently. And as a white mom myself, I worried about how my blue-eyed man-child would come to see the world and his place in it.
We recently moved to Braintree mostly for geography reasons but also because it had more economic diversity and possibly more racial diversity. While it may be too soon to judge since school hasn't started yet, already I've been happy to see that on the playground, at the farmers market, the library, etc. we see a lot of African American and multiracial families. It's great to see my child play with children of all races on the playground since he's not one of "the majority", he's just another a kid.
As for overt versus covert racism, the classic, "Oh, you don't want to drive through Roxbury" can be heard in any city/town in the Boston area. And the people in those metrowest Yankee towns may champion diversity in the abstract, but they sure know how to make someone who isn't exactly like them feel culturally "other".
To SunnyHoney, I wish I could tell you the exact perfect town, but at the end of the day I'm just some random stranger on the internet. My best advice would be to take a trip to a likely town and go to a variety of places that you would be likely to go to every day: visit the library, buy stamps from the post office, play on a playground, buy a pack of gum or bottle of water from a bunch of different stores. That will probably give you the best idea about community feel and attitude. However reading your posts you seem as sunny as your name suggests, I'm sure you'll meet great people wherever you go.
Sorry, late to the party, but I read this several days ago and it's been rattling around my head and bugging me for days.
Here's the thing - while I almost want to agree with you about finding overt racism among non-upper class communities, the fact of the matter is that in those working class communities you may be more likely to actually find people of other races.
I agree. I think some of the racism comes as a legacy of busing (my MIL says she is one of two families that remained on her Roslindale block when faced with busing, the rest fled for Dedham, Canton, Needham, Walpole, etc. ) and some from the tension of the current racial changes in these working class communities.
I lived in Waltham for the last ten years, and while the majority minority is Central/South American the cars I saw pulled over by the cops everyday (literally) were always (but once in ten years) driven by black faces. Including Haitian, African, AA there are very few black faces in Waltham so it really stood out. Our neighborhood was entirely white people (of various ages) born in Waltham and their constant vitriolic racism was directed at the influx of brown faces so I am not sure what was up with the cops.
As far as Boston Latin, my husband's experience was different. There were admittance race quotas to be met so the entering class was very diverse (this was the 80s) but by graduation almost all of the non-asian diversity had failed out. Similarly my nephew was recently the only white kid in his BPS graduating class and his grades were so poor he should not have graduated, his (all white) teachers fabricated his grades so he could "get out of that place."
SunnyHoney, we live in the Western burbs. As you know, there is not a ton of racial diversity in any of the Boston suburbs, and that which is, is South and East Asian. There were kids bused in via METCO to our town, but I never thought that was particularly comfortable. Our kids went to both public and private schools and both had friends from affluent black families in private schools, but not in the public schools. I suspect that this will be the case generally, but I have heard that Rajon Rondo's kids are attending the Lincoln public schools. In our experience, we have gotten to know the parents of black kids only from private schools.
We lived in Cambridge and Manhattan before looking to the burbs when our kids were coming of school age, which was a number of years ago. My wife visited almost every affluent town and took a tour of their school systems. She wanted a neighborhood where a) kids could walk/bike ride to their friends; b) kids could walk to public transportation when they were older to head into Cambridge/Boston; c) there was a town center with meaningful things in it (capuccino as we used to live in Soho near Dean & Deluca's; library; school; some kind of market; etc.); d) some kind of civic feeling. A number of the burbs like Lincoln and Sudbury don't really seem to have a town center. She said "Lincoln's town center is a flower pot." So, we ruled them out (to my dismay as I wanted a house on 5 acres in Lincoln). It turns out that she was right. Our neighborhood (and ones like it probably) are fantastic for raising children. They can have just enough independence -- walk/bike to friends early on, then go to the town center for a pizza (and sneak candy or a soda that we wouldn't otherwise allow); later take the train into Porter Square and head into Harvard Square. Very little schlepping for us.
To get that kind of neighborhood, we ended up with 5/8 of an acre, I think. that was the tradeoff, but I travel a lot so I figured my wife should have the choice. And, as I said, she was right. Towns that have nice town centers include Lexington (heavy Asian contingent in the schools -- we were just there for dinner at someone's house last night who said that there are lots of Koreans and Chinese who come with the mother and children but the father is back home and they are incredibly hard-working at school), Concord (puts the Q in Quaint but is weighted toward tourist-oriented stores with expensive chachkes), West Concord (part of Concord but with its own very manageable, less quaint town center), Winchester (we didn't really look there because at the time we were told that the town was anti-Semitic, but I doubt that is still true if it was at the time, and the town is nice), Weston (somewhat glitzy), Andover (I think, don't know it well but seemed nice). What about Dedham? I've been there once and it seemed to have a town center. I don't know Milton or the south Shore at all. Acton also has a few town centers and what seems like a reasonably large Jewish and Indian populations, both of whom put an emphasis on the quality of the schools.
Concord and especially W. Concord seem very safe. I'd guess the same is true for Sudbury, but I prefer Concord over Sudbury. Maybe a little less true for Lexington and Winchester but I don't have crime statistics.
Incidentally, I'd guess that the most ethnically diverse place with good schools is Brookline.
Feel free to PM me if I can be helpful. I don't check this website that often but will respond.
Incidentally, I'd guess that the most ethnically diverse place with good schools is Brookline.
Is Brookline community-oriented? Does it have a safe feel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFresh99
I agree. I think some of the racism comes as a legacy of busing (my MIL says she is one of two families that remained on her Roslindale block when faced with busing, the rest fled for Dedham, Canton, Needham, Walpole, etc. ) and some from the tension of the current racial changes in these working class communities.
I lived in Waltham for the last ten years, and while the majority minority is Central/South American the cars I saw pulled over by the cops everyday (literally) were always (but once in ten years) driven by black faces. Including Haitian, African, AA there are very few black faces in Waltham so it really stood out. Our neighborhood was entirely white people (of various ages) born in Waltham and their constant vitriolic racism was directed at the influx of brown faces so I am not sure what was up with the cops.
As far as Boston Latin, my husband's experience was different. There were admittance race quotas to be met so the entering class was very diverse (this was the 80s) but by graduation almost all of the non-asian diversity had failed out. Similarly my nephew was recently the only white kid in his BPS graduating class and his grades were so poor he should not have graduated, his (all white) teachers fabricated his grades so he could "get out of that place."
WOW! wow! wow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribechamy
Sorry, late to the party, but I read this several days ago and it's been rattling around my head and bugging me for days.
Here's the thing - while I almost want to agree with you about finding overt racism among non-upper class communities, the fact of the matter is that in those working class communities you may be more likely to actually find people of other races.
I have lived most of my life in and around desirable metrowest communities in what I call the triangle between the Charles and Mystic rivers (hence my name), and while many of those towns "value diversity", at the end of the day it's mostly white people, sometimes with east or south Asian families and kids of other races who have been adopted into white families or ride the bus from elsewhere to go to school. It almost is worse than having no non-white people to have non-white kids who look and feel marginalized. Last year at school Martin Luther King Day felt kind of weird - there were only two AA kids in the class, both adopted into white families, and according to the mom of one of them, her daughter said people kept looking at her differently. And as a white mom myself, I worried about how my blue-eyed man-child would come to see the world and his place in it.
We recently moved to Braintree mostly for geography reasons but also because it had more economic diversity and possibly more racial diversity. While it may be too soon to judge since school hasn't started yet, already I've been happy to see that on the playground, at the farmers market, the library, etc. we see a lot of African American and multiracial families. It's great to see my child play with children of all races on the playground since he's not one of "the majority", he's just another a kid.
As for overt versus covert racism, the classic, "Oh, you don't want to drive through Roxbury" can be heard in any city/town in the Boston area. And the people in those metrowest Yankee towns may champion diversity in the abstract, but they sure know how to make someone who isn't exactly like them feel culturally "other".
To SunnyHoney, I wish I could tell you the exact perfect town, but at the end of the day I'm just some random stranger on the internet. My best advice would be to take a trip to a likely town and go to a variety of places that you would be likely to go to every day: visit the library, buy stamps from the post office, play on a playground, buy a pack of gum or bottle of water from a bunch of different stores. That will probably give you the best idea about community feel and attitude. However reading your posts you seem as sunny as your name suggests, I'm sure you'll meet great people wherever you go.
Seems to me the perfect house, in Milton, is right there waiting for you to take a look at it....and you'd be buying it from perhaps the most prominent "AA" in the state....
As far as Boston Latin, my husband's experience was different. There were admittance race quotas to be met so the entering class was very diverse (this was the 80s) but by graduation almost all of the non-asian diversity had failed out. Similarly my nephew was recently the only white kid in his BPS graduating class and his grades were so poor he should not have graduated, his (all white) teachers fabricated his grades so he could "get out of that place."
I graduated from Boston Latin School just over ten years ago, and mine was one of the last classes to be admitted with the "racial quota". There were plenty of accomplished African American students (especially children of Haitian immigrants) and Hispanic students who went on to go to UPenn, Boston College, Harvard, MIT, Notre Dame, Middlebury, Wellesley College, etc. In fact, in my year, a Haitian young man ran for class president and he almost won. He missed by half a dozen votes. He was known for being incredibly gentle and gracious. He was well respected all around and I think he ended up being the prom king instead. I also think in my class, the school spirit award during Prize night was awarded to a male African American student who ended up going to BC law school. He was one of the most accomplished writers in our class and contributed very thoughtful work to The Register (yes, the same literary magazine that George Santayana founded when he was a student at BLS). I also have an AA friend who ended up at medical school. Another AA friend who was an National Honor Society officer and she eventually went off to Cambridge (in England) to become a classics scholar. I also knew an AA young man at John D. O'Bryant, an another Boston exam school. He graduated top of his class and went to BU on full scholarship. When I knew him in high school he was already spinning DNA strands in centrifuges at the age of 16. Anyway, having gone through an urban public school, my impression of African American and Hispanic kids: ah, just as capable of being nerdy.
That being said, Boston is not for everyone because there are some sub-par public schools in Boston and there are some neighborhoods with real gang violence and high poverty rates. But there are some very excellent charter schools and public exam schools in Boston too, and the hope of enrolling in one keeps us in the city.
Look, I'm not trying to sell you Boston particularly. But I just want to reassure you that not everyone in Massachusetts has the stereotype of young black males being threatening. Growing up in a public project and attending an urban public school, according to the mass media, you would think I grew up being scared of criminality and violence. Nope, those topics did not come up until I learned about "urban problems" in history and political science classes. In high school, when I saw an African American young man on the street, the immediate thoughts that popped into my head weren't "Oh, threat! danger ahead!" It was more like, eye squint: "Hmmm...is that kid so-and-so from my Chinese class? Or is he so-and-so from the football team?"
Last edited by sharencare; 08-12-2013 at 11:03 PM..
Is Brookline community-oriented? Does it have a safe feel?
Brookline is much more urban than a lot of the other towns that have been mentioned to this point. Even with your budget, you're going to have to compromise a lot on the house you described in your first post. The more suburban areas of Brookline are extremely pricey. The schools are well thought of though and the town as a whole offers a lot.
Similarly my nephew was recently the only white kid in his BPS graduating class and his grades were so poor he should not have graduated, his (all white) teachers fabricated his grades so he could "get out of that place."
I think this is besides the original point, but you also might want to consider the diversity of the teaching staff. In Boston Latin, every year, I almost had at least 2-3 teachers out of 6-7 teachers who were African American, Hispanic, or Asian. The ones I remember taught Latin, Math, English, History, Biology, Physics, and Music. I think one of the best teachers I ever had was my 7th grade Reading teacher. She was African American. We were scared of her initially because she was a tough grader and completely no-nonsense, but within a year, we were definitely all better writers. I also remember our Math teacher in 8th grade was a studious-looking young African American man and he would surprise us by doing memorable cartwheels on the floor to teach us reciprocals. I also had a couple of teachers, one white and black, who figured out I came from the public projects and only had one parent. They always seemed to be extra kind to me, and eventually they mentioned that they also grew up in the projects. I dunno. It just helps to have role models that understand your perspective or even a few extra adults that will listen to you. Just something to consider. There were some abysmal teachers at Boston Latin but most teachers were fine.
looks nice, but I don't think Milton fits our family.
My curiosity is piqued. SunnyHoney was there anything outstanding about Milton that moved it off your list of top contenders or was it more of a gut, it just didn't feel right, something was missing thing? I have been exploring Milton for myself and have it weighted in the middle of my list of towns right now.
My curiosity is piqued. SunnyHoney was there anything outstanding about Milton that moved it off your list of top contenders or was it more of a gut, it just didn't feel right, something was missing thing? I have been exploring Milton for myself and have it weighted in the middle of my list of towns right now.
We haven't completely ruled out Milton, per se, because (full disclosure) we haven't seen it yet, and I think it would be imprudent to not give it at least an in-person glance. But, it has moved down the list just because we're in crunch time now with the school-enrollment timing, and there are just so many areas to consider. We're feeling compelled to quickly narrow it down by ruling out some towns completely.
The reason Milton isn't making the cut is because, aesthetically, the housing is not our style. To find something to our liking in Milton, it appears our budget would have to be much bigger. Milton homes seem nice, but they are just too old and/or too closely built for our tastes. This tightness, in my opinion, gives it too urban a feel, although I know in NE, that doesn't necessarily translate to urban for most people. We've lived in the Midwest, Southeast, Northeast, and Southwest before coming to the Northeast, and although every region is so very different, and we've appreciated those differences, what we've come to refer to as "suburban" consists of larger homes, with little more space between the them, kids learning to ride their bikes in cul-de-sacs, and sidewalks leading to neighborhood parks or schools. Perhaps that IS what Milton is like, but so far I haven't seen that from my distance searching. Now like I said, it might be our price range, or it may just be the luck of the draw that right now no homes on the market meeting our criteria have led us to those images of Milton. I'd be happy to have someone correct me if I'm wrong.
We were up this weekend and saw Dover, Sherborn, Newton, Needham, Sudbury, and a small bit of Natick. We'll be up this weekend to look at Lexington, Sharon, and Concord. Dover is topping the list right now. Dover looks a tad bit more "rural" than our suburban ideal, but so is our neighborhood here in CT and despite the look, it actually isn't rural at all; I've come to accept this as the mark of NE suburbia (no sidewalks, what's up with the lack of sidewalks!?!)
Needham was our next favorite, loved the Charles River St. area! I think we've ruled Newton out based on the fact that while it was great (wow, was it AWESOME!), the houses we'd like there are WAY outside of our budget.
The neighborhood we saw in Natick looked VERY nice, it was all those things that fulfill our suburban dreams that I named above. The actual home we saw needed work, but that's no problem. My only issue with Natick is that I can't get a good read on it yet. I've been getting really mixed and conflicting info about it. I've heard everything from "very affluent" to "white-trashy"/ ghetto??? We heard it's up and coming, and we've heard it's on the decline. We didn't see any run-down parts of Natick, but we also didn't see much of the town at all. Are there bad neighborhoods within it? Many people on this forum had great things to say about it. So what is the real deal on Natick? I'm starting to wonder if because it is not in the "ring of super wealth" (as my hubby and I have come to call the Dover, Wellesley, Sherborn, Weston arch) that people just refer to what would otherwise be considered the upper-middle, and middle-class in Natick as "trashy" or "ghetto" because it is relative less wealthy that the super-rich areas. Is this the case? Or is it that a lower-class element really does exist there near or among the middle, upper-middle class?
We don't feel the need to be in the most wealthy neighborhood we can afford. We just want (like anyone else, I guess) to know the neighborhood isn't on the decline or at great risk of being on the decline. We want a little reassurance that the folks in their nice big houses next to ours on the cute cul-de-sac aren't in over their heads in homes they can't afford and that going into mortgage default won't cause them to be short-selling and lowering the values of the area anytime soon. Of course we know there's no guarantee of this anywhere, and sure, this is a risk that can exist anywhere, especially these days with market turmoil and uncertainty, but we all know that those super-wealthy areas just have more protection against that kind of decline. Is Natick at a high, mid, or low risk of this?
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looks nice, but I don't think Milton fits our family.
