Why is the MBTA so incompetent? (Boston, Orange: buying, income, maintenance)

[wolfgang239]

Some of the decisions they make absolutely boggle the mind. It was just published that the Hyundai Rotem Commuter Rail locomotives (which were already 30 months late) are having bearing issues before even being put into service. The cost of this is being absorbed by the manufacturer, but it highlights the stupidity of the MBTA's bidding and procurement process. Mechanics are also concerned saying the locomotives don't look very reliable even after the bearing replacements.

This is along with Hyundai Rotem's lawsuit for the Chinese Red/Orange line replacement cars. The Chinese company's bid came in way below Hyundai, and the MBTA is being accused of unfair bidding processes. A Chinese company underbid a company that couldn't deliver turn key Commuter Rail equipment!!!?? We will have a real life Charlie on the MTA when the doors aren't able to open.

This translates to wasted money that could be used all across their system. The whole agency needs to be reformed.

[Dm84]

You're trying to apply common sense and logic to an organization that uses neither.

The great thing about a government run monopoly is the service can be absolutely horrible and people will keep coming back because there aren't any other viable options.

[pennyone]

When I was in China a few years ago, I rode on the subways in several major Chinese cities including Beijing irself. I do have to say that the Chinese subway cars were very clean , modern and very comfortable. There were also absolutely no delays or broken down trains at all in the several weeks that I was in Beijing. When I asked my colleagues who were there longer than me about the subway system, they all commented on the relative reliability and efficiency of the Chinese subway system. So, just because the Chinese can produce these trains cheaper than the Koreans (who clearly have reliability issues) does not automatically mean that the Chinese cars will be worse. In fact, I think this is a great deal for the MBTA. At this point, those red line cars need to be all retired and taken out of service.

[wolfgang239]

I hope the same is true when it comes time for them to install the subway cars here. However, I doubt the Chinese government was worried about the lowest bidder (the company that won the MBTA bid IS the Chinese government). The MBTA procurement process seems to basically invite issues like this. With a better process (or an unlimited budget like in China) I'm guessing things would have run a little smoother.

A bit more research reveals massive issues with the Boeing LRV Green Line trolleys and another example of immediately unusable Commuter Rail equipment more recently with the bi-level cars.

I don't know much about the hiring practices and pension plans/years of service but people regularly complain about how wasteful that is. While they should definitely honor existing contracts, it seems like they just dump money down the drain. I can't imagine how the Western Mass folks feel with the limited benefits they get.

[Urban Peasant]

Originally Posted by pennyone

When I was in China a few years ago, I rode on the subways in several major Chinese cities including Beijing irself. I do have to say that the Chinese subway cars were very clean , modern and very comfortable. There were also absolutely no delays or broken down trains at all in the several weeks that I was in Beijing. When I asked my colleagues who were there longer than me about the subway system, they all commented on the relative reliability and efficiency of the Chinese subway system. So, just because the Chinese can produce these trains cheaper than the Koreans (who clearly have reliability issues) does not automatically mean that the Chinese cars will be worse. In fact, I think this is a great deal for the MBTA. At this point, those red line cars need to be all retired and taken out of service.

Many of China's subways are much newer than Boston's. Beijing's dates back only to the 1970's while others like Shenzhen's and Guangzhou's are even newer. Public transportation is highly valued in Asia and Europe which allows for routine maintenance, immediate replacement of faulty parts, and huge investments.

Over here it's so hard to even get a broken switch replaced because the legislators aren't willing to pay for it much less new trains. I bet some Massachusetts residents not living in Greater Boston or who do not ride the T are even apoplectic that the T is even spending money to get new trains (the same ones that shot down the inflation based gas tax during the last election I suppose). You don't get that intense anti-public transit fervor in China's major cities.

[Urban Peasant]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

I hope the same is true when it comes time for them to install the subway cars here. However, I doubt the Chinese government was worried about the lowest bidder (the company that won the MBTA bid IS the Chinese government). The MBTA procurement process seems to basically invite issues like this. With a better process (or an unlimited budget like in China) I'm guessing things would have run a little smoother.

A bit more research reveals massive issues with the Boeing LRV Green Line trolleys and another example of immediately unusable Commuter Rail equipment more recently with the bi-level cars.

I don't know much about the hiring practices and pension plans/years of service but people regularly complain about how wasteful that is. While they should definitely honor existing contracts, it seems like they just dump money down the drain. I can't imagine how the Western Mass folks feel with the limited benefits they get.

Exactly. As a corollary to my last reply, the Western Mass folks often don't feel happy about the situation at all. Even those that ride public transit such as PVTA, WRTA, or any other regional transit system will feel shortchanged. The thing is the MBTA is often made the scapegoat but the real culprits are the legislators on Beacon Hill and on Capitol Hill in D.C. The legislators almost never adequately fund public transit projects because too many of their constituents prefer highway funding (which itself is often inadequate) or no funding for public projects at all (the truly conservative constituents). Without funding, of course transit agencies like the MBTA have to go for the lowest bidder and in fact by law in Massachusetts they are required to go for the lowest bidder regardless of how shoddy the products are. But then as you know the saying "The Cheapskate is always the loser" goes, the cheapest goods and services may end up costing the agency a lot more in the long run. Who made up such a law I don't know but I bet fiscally conservative transit hating constituents from somewhere in the Commonwealth egged on their legislators to pass such legislation. It's a sad situation and I don't see it getting much better unless we get some real reform in the government at all levels.

[Amontillado]

Maybe "real reform in the government at all levels" would help, but I believe the situation is beyond any government's control. A quality transit system costs a heap of money, and that money has to come from taxes, or from the fares charged to users. And "we the people" aren't especially fond of paying the costs by either of those methods. If "reform" can create money from nothing, I'm all in favor.

Of course we could reform our government to be like China's, you know, that place where they censor the Internet so people won't start talking about "real reform in the government at all levels". Maybe just buying their subway cars is better, eh.

[wolfgang239]

The problem isn't high cost, it is mismanagement. Only one is aboslute in a public transit system, and the MBTA has both. I was only referring to agency reform here, not sure where you got "government at all levels" and censorship from but that's cool I guess.

[Brave Stranger]

The MBTA is funded by a patchwork of taxes. Baker needs to consolidate an income stream & fund the system on a level basis. Boston is fast becoming a major international hub, for good or ill, and being such, the state needs to step-up & fund the system properly. As for pension & management reform....it would be nice, but doubtful, considering the history of the state & its rampant nepotism. It's ingrained in the DNA of the culture.

[mustelid1971]

It happens whenever the politicians stick their noses in a public bidding process.