Permits/licensed workers needed for almost any house work?

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd

I don't know if inspectors patrol but I think they do in my town. Years ago I lined our driveway with natural head sized boulders and back filled ot allow plantings and next year on our tax bill we saw an increase for "improvements".

That probably wouldn't have been the building inspector but rather the tax assessor who dinged you for that. Both of them are in their car a lot during the day and while I don't think most of them necessarily are out on "patrol" looking at everyone's house to see what they're doing I do think they drive by a lot of houses during the day.

[Allharv]

Originally Posted by MikePRU

Whether you want to pull a permit or not is often a personal choice but it involves risk and not just legal risk. How do you know the work was done correctly? In the end, it's just like any time you choose to follow the law or not. I can't say I know anyone who hasn't bent a law or two in their life. Whether it's illegally parking or not pulling a permit when changing a toilet. So now the question becomes . . . if I don't pull a permit will I get caught or will anyone care?

I don't want to break the law and I do my best to abide. However, laws should be just and reasonable. If the law is not reasonable, the solution should be clarify and fix the law, not to put the burden on citizens to break them as some weird civil disobedience.

As previously quoted by wolfgang239 and listed on Lexington's building department page:

"it shall be unlawful to construct, reconstruct, alter, repair, remove or demolish a structure; or to change the use or occupancy of a building or structure; or to install or alter any equipment for which provision is made or the installation of which is regulated by this code"
and
"The fee is based on the estimated value of the project: $12.00 per 1,000.00, rounded up to the nearest 1,000. The minimum permit fee is $30."

It appears that ordinary repairs are:
Any maintenance which does not effect:
*Structure - floor loads, roof loads, wind or snow loads. Structural deficiencies are never “grand fathered” by the code - when cited they must be addressed.
*Egress - includes any element of a means of egress: stair enclosures, decks, porches, doorways, hardware, etc. Egress deficiencies are never “grand fathered” by the code - when cited they must be addressed.
*Fire Protection Systems - smoke barriers, fire walls, fire separation assemblies, fire dampers, shutters, etc.; sprinklers, standpipes, detectors, smoke removal/systems.
*Fire Ratings - interior finish; wall coverings (not paint or wallpaper), trim, flooring, drywall, plaster.
*Energy Conservation - windows, doors, insulation, etc.
*Mechanical Equipment - central air-conditioning units, boilers, kitchen equipment, exhaust hoods, ventilation systems (ventilation requirements are not “grand fathered” by the code), air distribution systems, hydronic piping, chimneys and vents, etc. See also Section 103.0 for mechanical equipment permit requirements.
*Plumbing, Sanitary, Gas, Electrical

So, when I replaced a door strike plate, which by the letter of the law would count as altering or repairing the door (which is not exempt as an ordinary repair per the criteria above), I would have had to pay $30 to install a $4 piece of hardware. To replace a missing screw on a light switch's face plate could be construed as work on an electrical system (plus another $30 permit), and that's not exempt. That's crazy.

If indeed there isn't clarification somewhere about the scope of this law, then I think it's overly broad and unreasonable.

[SandyJet]

Originally Posted by Allharv

My brother told me that someone he knew in Brookline was hassled by one of their building inspectors because he saw an old toilet outside from what I guess was a DIY toilet replacement and said some things like, ""CHINESE people do not like to pull permits. Are you CHINESE? Did you buy the house from CHINESE people?"

Racist and unprofessional things aside, I realize that I'd like to learn more about what is legally needed in terms of house work and conversely what is done in reality. I can certainly understand that if you're changing the actual structure of a house and knocking down a wall, a permit would be important to authorize the work and ensure that it's done safely to code. However, what if you just replaced a faucet, a sink, or toilet water connector? Any of those could cause serious flood damage if improperly installed. How about a light switch or power outlet box? That could be a fire risk. Should only a licensed electrician install something like a ceiling fan?

Is the official answer for everything above that a licensed person needs to do the work with a permit? I'd hope that permits aren't needed for the little things, especially since I'm told that the professional who does the work can charge $/hour while they stand there for the building inspector to inspect the work. Are there public documents somewhere where it makes it clear what types of work are and are not allowed by the homeowner--I mean, could somebody legally trouble you for changing a fluorescent light bulb? Are these policies different from town to town? I note this post by MikePRU which at least says that the statute of limitations is 10 years for unpermitted work.

I've heard that some building inspectors patrol streets on trash day looking for building materials, and if there's unauthorized work, it's a triple charge for permits, and they can do things like force one to open all of the walls to inspect wiring, plumbing, insulation, and for fire stops.

How have you decided to weigh the expense/trouble of getting a permit/licensed professional to do minor house work that you could easily do yourself in a few hours? What work do people most often take a chance to do themselves vs. hiring someone? Cynically, how much of the motivation behind these rules was as a way for professionals to ensure that they will continue to have sufficient work? I've also heard that if you hire a certain a plumber in Brookline, for example, that the building inspector never gives that person a hard time, which raises all sorts of questions.

Two of my chinese friends flip houses and are landlords. They buy them cheap renovate them with off the books illegal workers and never pull permits. That is the business model.


They are pretty smart. They use regular family vans and owners wear business casual even to do repairs. They even drop tools off ahead of time and materials. They also arrive early and leave work and work on weekends.

I had an emergency in my house and my entire sewer line needed replacing, floor jackhammer and a sump pump put in. They did whole job on a Sunday. Workers never left house till job done and blinds drawn.

These guys move walls, do kitchens move beams etc.

There biggest job ever was a sandy damaged two story house with no flood insurance that was a rental not eligible for FEMA. Bottom half of house was under eight feet of water top half of house caught fire. Can you imagine a half burned half flooded house.

They fixed it for 170K no permits like new. Landlord should have been declared condemmed or sub damaged. If so like 30K to knock down and like almost 400K to build a new to code FEMA code house at 2013 building codes and they would have waited on permits, inspections, lead tests, absestos tests etc. meanwhile owner had tenants back in at higher rents while other owners doing the right thing had empty lots.

They threw absestos and Lead in Garage etc.

[checkperm]

The gold rule is if the renovation is small and common sense / internet confirms no permits required - go for it

Of course there always will be hacks who do half-house renovations without permits, but it is risky if you want to resell teh house

[Allharv]

Originally Posted by SandyJet

Two of my chinese friends flip houses and are landlords. They buy them cheap renovate them with off the books illegal workers and never pull permits. That is the business model.

If it's ok for you to speak in generalities, I know that many people don't check that work was permitted, but how are they able to sell these places & undergo inspections by buyers without this ever being discovered? And/or once anyone checks to see if permits were pulled for the work and they weren't, wouldn't the town become aware of this and cite the current owners?

What did you think about the quality of their work?

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by Allharv

If it's ok for you to speak in generalities, I know that many people don't check that work was permitted, but how are they able to sell these places & undergo inspections by buyers without this ever being discovered? And/or once anyone checks to see if permits were pulled for the work and they weren't, wouldn't the town become aware of this and cite the current owners?

What did you think about the quality of their work?

Unless the town catches them in the act, how are they going to find out about the unpermitted work? Even if a perspective buyer discovers that there is unpermitted work, they'll likely just cancel the contract. They won't tell the town about anything. Also, as you pointed out a lot of buyers don't check for permits. If the work is done to code and just not permitted, a home inspector is not going to raise any red flags.

[Allharv]

My thought was that if I were the building department and a buyer asked about work in a house that I couldn't find a permit for, that would throw up a red flag for the town that they would look into. For the home inspector, I was thinking about work that turns out not to be up to code.

[MikePRU]

Originally Posted by Allharv

My thought was that if I were the building department and a buyer asked about work in a house that I couldn't find a permit for, that would throw up a red flag for the town that they would look into. For the home inspector, I was thinking about work that turns out not to be up to code.

I ask about permits all the time. I can't say I've ever seen it cause a problem for the homeowner. I suppose the building inspector would need to get access to the house to confirm the unpermitted work and no homeowner is going to let them in to do that. If there's evidence in plain sight like a toilet sitting on the curb, then the inspector can probably issue a fine based on that or at least a cease and desist order. Based on what the unpermitted work is and how it was done, I've seen plenty of people make the decision to still buy a house with unpermitted improvements that I've asked the town about. I've never had a call from a client who did that complaining that the town has come after them.

Your question reminds me of something that did happen to me recently . . . I was working with a client to buy a house and when I went to the building department to check the file I was told there was a code violation letter sent to the house recently that was not disclosed to us. It turns out the Westwood Building Department was reviewing online "for sale" listings of homes in the town and if it looked like there were unpermitted improvements in the listing photos they were sending out a violation notice. My understanding is that enough people complained to their local politicians and the practice has ended now. This was how I found out about the statute of limitations on code violations that someone cited earlier.

[checkperm]

Interesting, i saw a new web site which shows permits and projects costs for towns in Metro West and Boston, not sure if i am allowed to post it here