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That sounds kind of radical but I mostly agree. It's the kids who need to be changed and to learn that welfare is not a way of life. Normally, I'm not for a 50 week school year or 8+ hours a day but these kids don't have any life anyway. What will they be doing during the summer when regular families are going on vacations or to camp? Probably hanging out and making trouble or selling drugs.
You already have them going to jail for life .I disagree with you assessment .
You already have them going to jail for life .I disagree with you assessment .
I'm not going to argue with you but as a former teacher who has seen many, many kids who must have absolutely no discipline or rules at home, those kids can't learn in a classroom. They also disrupt the class so that no other kids can learn either. There needs to be some kind of early intervention. If the parents won't be parents, then someone else has to take over and teach them how to behave.
I personally know of many college students who have done exactly that. They have parents who could support them but then they wouldn't be eligible for the benefits. If that's not gaming the system, what is it?
What benefits?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I didn't say that's not gaming the system. I said it's absolutely not happening on any macro scale.
I'm not going to argue with you but as a former teacher who has seen many, many kids who must have absolutely no discipline or rules at home, those kids can't learn in a classroom. They also disrupt the class so that no other kids can learn either. There needs to be some kind of early intervention. If the parents won't be parents, then someone else has to take over and teach them how to behave.
Nothing about jail.
In 2 brief posts you have criminalized them, made patronizing morality and values statements against their families, and proposed class (as in socioeconomic status) segregation—all harmful to them.
Last edited by CaseyB; 07-01-2015 at 04:43 AM..
Reason: rude
In 2 brief posts you have criminalized them, made patronizing morality and values statements against their families, and proposed class (as in socioeconomic status) segregation—all harmful to them.
But from I have seen in regards to their parents, their culture at home is far more detrimental to these children than any negative stereotyping being done by their teachers. When I read articles noting that blacks and Hispanics are disciplined in school far more often than their white or Asian counterparts, and that the discipline numbers need to be equal across the board racially, I just shake my head in frustration. Being Chinese, my parents told me always to respect my teachers and my elders, consequently I didn't need any disciplining at school. Meanwhile, blacks seem to have a chip on their shoulder against any form of discipline, that it's all an extension of being kept down by "the (white) man". I see that at work amongst the black men of all ages that grew up in urban American neighborhoods. And with that attitude, no wonder black students have difficulties in school with any school assignments that require effort. Therefore, I believe that the best type of encouragement and disciplining in school has to be tailored in regards to the background and culture of the student. Asian students don't need their lessons to be fun or entertaining because academic success is so ingrained in them... and just the threat of sending a note home to their parents will keep them behaving. On the other hand, if a student's background is such that their parents aren't intellectual, then I suppose that their lessons have to be all fun and games in an effort to trick the student into learning. As for disciplining them, of that I don't know since I enjoy learning so I can't relate to them, but I do think that treating them like delicate snowflakes is a waste of time for both the class and that student.
Anyway, those in the chronic cycle of poverty need teachers, social workers and police officers of their own race and/or culture working with them in their neighborhoods. Obama isn't really a good role model for them because even though he is black, he doesn't have American slave roots plus he didn't growi up in an American ghetto neighborhood.
In 2 brief posts you have criminalized them, made patronizing morality and values statements against their families, and proposed class (as in socioeconomic status) segregation—all harmful to them.
Some discipline and role models would help them. It is not criminalizing them. To establish rules to follow and to give them some special attention that they are not getting at home would help them. That they aren't getting what they need at home is evident by their classroom behavior. A struggling single mother cannot usually give them all that they need, children with alcoholic parents or abusive parents--most would be better off getting after school supervision rather than being sent home to the same negative environment. Those who are totally out of control should be sent away (something that is already done in some cases.) Many of them (and I know from experience) run away from home anyway and don't want to be with their dysfunctional parents. A residential school that they could attend would remove them from the toxic home environment and at least give them a chance. They are not necessarily bad kids if they are given a chance.
Class segregation? They're already got that. They need to be given the same opportunities as rich people who can send their kids to private school. Small classes, good teachers, role models, quality education.
I don't think you've taught in a public school or you would know what I'm talking about and not distort what I am saying.
I'm not a social economist, but I think our current welfare system creates a disincentive for people to learn 21st-century job skills. There is a large bucket of means-tested welfare programs that people would lose if they found work that put them over the poverty line:
SNAP (food stamps)
WIC (supplemental nutrition program)
TANF (temporary assistance for needy families)
TADFC (cash assistance for children and pregnant women)
EAEDC (emergency aid for elderly, disabled, and children)
SSI (disability benefits, regardless of work history)
Housing Assistance (including Section 8)
MassHealth/Medicaid (insurance - automatically eligible with SSI)
ESP (transportation and child care for those seeking employment)
Head Start (early education)
LIHEAP (fuel assistance)
Breakfast & Lunch Program/Summer Food Service
Earned Income-Tax Credit/Child Tax Credit (tax refunds even for those who paid no taxes)
Lifeline ("Obama Phone," though it could even be called the "Bush Phone" or "Reagan Phone")
There are some programs I'm missing. From experience, I know that some of the transitional assistance programs will provide discretionary cash payments for incidentals, such as car repairs, and the case workers are often very lenient about the core eligibility requirements (e.g., participating in employment-related activities or community service).
The bottom-line is that folks below the poverty line aren't living in luxury, and they generally aren't putting their children in neighborhoods and schools that will allow them to break the cycle. But they are often able to have all of their basic needs met at little or no cost, while spending any discretionary income from low-wage jobs on whatever they choose (clothes, cigarettes, alcohol, lottery tickets, cable TV, video games). Whatever financial incentive entry-level job training provides would have to be enough to cover those things. Bear in mind that, once your income exceeds the poverty threshold, the marginal value of each dollar earned drops, because you are now paying income taxes. This further reduces the incentive to work.
I certainly wouldn't rely on flawed studies from places like the CATO Institute to come up with a precise income threshold for replacing welfare benefits. But whatever the magic number is for a particular individual or family, it's safe to say that we won't be breaking the cycle by encouraging people to work long hours at low wages for the right to hover just above the poverty line. In fact, with the disappearing middle class, I'm not even sure what low-income folks should aspire to anymore.
Anecdotally, my wife and I incurred significant student loan debt hoping for a path to that middle class, and we both work. After taxes, health insurance premiums, child care, and student loan payments around $1600/mo., we have just enough to cover housing in a safe town with good schools. We have been out of grad school for more than seven years and have no savings, retirement or otherwise. We don't have any "home equity" to fall back on, like so many from our parents' generation. We struggle with car repairs and had to use a credit card to cover public kindergarten tuition for our daughter. We don't go on vacations. If we had a do-over, we certainly wouldn't have pursued the best education available to us.
The point of this whiny detour is that my family is not alone. By all reasonable definitions, we should be comfortably "middle class," but the tax structure and educational costs to get here have removed most of the benefits. The false assumption that higher education = wealth is reflected in the tax code, which allows a mere $2,500 deduction for student loan interest payments (we paid $17,000 in interest alone last year, on $190K of combined debt). Massachusetts doesn't even allow deductions for graduate school debt, again based on the assumption that people with advanced degrees don't need financial help. Those assumptions are outdated and wrong.
For me, the clearest benefit to being above the poverty line is that we live in a safe town -- but so does my best friend, who lives nearby. He works as waiter/bartender while his wife stays home and watches their kids. Because of the "gray economy" you mentioned, they are able to afford a mortgage and live quite comfortably. So why did my wife and I bother with college? Because we're stupid, and before the economy tanked in 2008, everyone used catchphrases like "the best investment you'll ever make" and "it's a downpayment on your future" when discussing higher education.
In a nutshell, as long as we continue to create perverse incentives not to work, or to work "just enough," the cycle of poverty will continue. And by then, there won't be any more rungs to climb on the social ladder, because the proud "middle class" will have joined the ranks of other mythical creatures, like leprechauns and unicorns.
What I dont get is.. where are the parents in all of this? Allowing your kids to go into massive debt? I doubt you got that debt from a state school.
What I dont get is.. where are the parents in all of this? Allowing your kids to go into massive debt? I doubt you got that debt from a state school.
Many parents were under the mistaken belief that it was a worthwhile investment because your potential future earnings would cover the cost. That doesn't necessarily hold true anymore.
Then of course there is the reality that an 18 year old is an adult who doesn't have to listen to everything mommy and daddy says anymore.
Some discipline and role models would help them. It is not criminalizing them. To establish rules to follow and to give them some special attention that they are not getting at home would help them. That they aren't getting what they need at home is evident by their classroom behavior. A struggling single mother cannot usually give them all that they need, children with alcoholic parents or abusive parents--most would be better off getting after school supervision rather than being sent home to the same negative environment. Those who are totally out of control should be sent away (something that is already done in some cases.) Many of them (and I know from experience) run away from home anyway and don't want to be with their dysfunctional parents. A residential school that they could attend would remove them from the toxic home environment and at least give them a chance. They are not necessarily bad kids if they are given a chance.
Class segregation? They're already got that. They need to be given the same opportunities as rich people who can send their kids to private school. Small classes, good teachers, role models, quality education.
I don't think you've taught in a public school or you would know what I'm talking about and not distort what I am saying.
I don't know you but right now as a parent I would not want you to teach my children you seem to set in old ways and not interested in teaching any more or learning on how to teach or educate children that might be a challenge ,damn the kids and damn the parents!!! How do I know ,the wife has been a teacher for 30 years and all three of my girls are in the same business , all three are teachers,8 years ,5 years and one year .From your post you pigeonhole children and that is by far the worst thing you can do .
Lack of mobility. Could be physical. The ability to simply take a bus or train, learn to drive a car and learn the regs or even just walk to a place
Lack of education. I'm not talking grad school. Try high school! Who hires a drop out for anything other than a waiter?
Lack of time management. Just because you aren't working doesn't mean you just sit around. Volunteering, taking online classes and networking adds up. Casual distractions add up. Planning your time is a world of difference. The second you start allowing others to dictate your time it can hold you back. Don't be afraid to say I don't have time for this. We get so programmed to say yes to everything and bend over backwards that sometimes it takes away time from ourselves.
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I disagree with you assessment .
