How much did you spend for heating in the month of december? (Boston: apartment, loan)

[kettlepot]

A non-Masser here. I've got to ask the OP, why would you build a new house and not install all natural gas utilities? At least out here in San Diego, gas is SO much cheaper than electric. I have gas stove, gas heat, gas dryer, and gas hot water. My electric only operates my lights, refrigerator, pc, and washing machine.

To keep on the theme of the thread, I have a 1000 sq ft home. Electric usage runs about 90 - 110 kwh per month, and gas use runs between a low of 11 in the summer and 15 in the winter. I don't have A/C. Some winters I don't run the heat at all, but that has resulted in some frosty mornings. Well, not actual frost, this is San Diego after all, but I have had to wear a sweatshirt inside the house. Today, to warm up the house I've opened up the doors and windows. Outside, it's in the low 70s.

[GeoffD]

Eversource read the meter on 12/22 with a previous meter read on 11/23. I only used 73 CCF / 75 therms. $93.87.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by kettlepot

A non-Masser here. I've got to ask the OP, why would you build a new house and not install all natural gas utilities?

In coastal Massachusetts, a heat pump is cheaper to operate than burning natural gas to fire a boiler or furnace. There are also big chunks of more semi-rural Massachusetts that have no city gas available in the street. This year, home heating oil is cheap but that is not the long term trend.

It used to be that heat pump efficiency fell off at about 25F. You had to use resistive heat coils (expensive to run) when it got colder than that. The new heat pumps from companies like Mitsubishi stay efficient down to about 5F and they still work in subzero at degraded efficiency. In coastal Massachusetts, you don't have many nights where it's colder than that. With new construction where code is zero air leaks, modern insulation, and Energystar windows & doors, a heat pump is the best answer. It also gives you the option of putting solar panels on the roof and heating for free on the shoulder months and get at least some help in the limited sunlight months.

The other consideration is that the heat pump also doubles as your summer air conditioning system. You don't need to run parallel heating and cooling systems. If you go with a ductless system, you have no loss through the ducts so it's even more efficient.

Natural gas and electricity are both expensive in Massachusetts. There is a gas pipeline capacity problem where there is a shortage in the winter. Something like 50% of Massachusetts electricity comes from gas-fired plants. We see winter surcharges on both natural gas and electricity. Somewhere like California has cheap natural gas and a funky electric market where electricity is comparable to what we pay in Massachusetts. You do your own local math and make your decisions based on local prices.

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by BostonMike7

2400 sf 1960's ranch.


I primarily use Natural Gas for most everything. Heat (3 zones), water heater, stove, and the dryer. So I think I use 21-22 therms during peak use. Threw out my last bill, so I could be off. But last winter when we first moved in, I was averaging about $250/month for Dec-Feb. I replaced a few drafty windows, and improved insulation as well as got a few Nest thermostats, and my Dec bill was $170 heating to 68 degrees. We will see how Jan/Feb turns out. Summer usage of NG is $35 or so.

My electric is cheap. When I first moved in, we used about 400-450 kwh. I replaced ALL the lighting with LED lighting, and that dropped me to around 300-350 kwh base (we had TONS of 65watt recessed lights). Average electric bill now is $40. My peak usage was summer with AC at about 850 kwh. That's the most so far. Dec usage was 352 kwh which was a $42 bill.

Water is usually $100/quarter.

How many therms was it for $170?

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by kettlepot

A non-Masser here. I've got to ask the OP, why would you build a new house and not install all natural gas utilities? At least out here in San Diego, gas is SO much cheaper than electric. I have gas stove, gas heat, gas dryer, and gas hot water. My electric only operates my lights, refrigerator, pc, and washing machine.

To keep on the theme of the thread, I have a 1000 sq ft home. Electric usage runs about 90 - 110 kwh per month, and gas use runs between a low of 11 in the summer and 15 in the winter. I don't have A/C. Some winters I don't run the heat at all, but that has resulted in some frosty mornings. Well, not actual frost, this is San Diego after all, but I have had to wear a sweatshirt inside the house. Today, to warm up the house I've opened up the doors and windows. Outside, it's in the low 70s.

We have plans for solar panel in the near future. I also believe that electricity will be way cheaper soon (well, I am talking about order of 10 years horizon...) given how the cost of electricty generation from solar has been going. I think the final problem we need to solve is electricity storage - tesla's gigafactory is definitely a step toward the end goal. There's also the possibility of pumped storage where excess electricity during the day can be used to pump water up into some storage tank at a higher location, where at night it can be used to run a turbine and turn back into electricity. This process is also fairly efficient at ~80% efficiency

On another note, we framed and built the house ourselves. We just love how there is no major air duct to deal with. It's soooo much easier and the structure feels a lot sturdier.

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

In coastal Massachusetts, a heat pump is cheaper to operate than burning natural gas to fire a boiler or furnace. There are also big chunks of more semi-rural Massachusetts that have no city gas available in the street. This year, home heating oil is cheap but that is not the long term trend.

It used to be that heat pump efficiency fell off at about 25F. You had to use resistive heat coils (expensive to run) when it got colder than that. The new heat pumps from companies like Mitsubishi stay efficient down to about 5F and they still work in subzero at degraded efficiency. In coastal Massachusetts, you don't have many nights where it's colder than that. With new construction where code is zero air leaks, modern insulation, and Energystar windows & doors, a heat pump is the best answer. It also gives you the option of putting solar panels on the roof and heating for free on the shoulder months and get at least some help in the limited sunlight months.

The other consideration is that the heat pump also doubles as your summer air conditioning system. You don't need to run parallel heating and cooling systems. If you go with a ductless system, you have no loss through the ducts so it's even more efficient.

Natural gas and electricity are both expensive in Massachusetts. There is a gas pipeline capacity problem where there is a shortage in the winter. Something like 50% of Massachusetts electricity comes from gas-fired plants. We see winter surcharges on both natural gas and electricity. Somewhere like California has cheap natural gas and a funky electric market where electricity is comparable to what we pay in Massachusetts. You do your own local math and make your decisions based on local prices.

Exactly. I am a big fan of efficient home. My parents home is no where near passivehouse standard, but (I believe) it beats current building standard for ACH50 (air change under pressure). We paid lots of attention to air sealing and proper roof venting (air sealed foam board + fiber glass to make up R38). In other areas of the house we used continuous R-5 polyiso on the outside, and R-13 high density blown in celluouse in wall cavity.

I modeled the house's thermal characteristic and my calculation shows that the total heating requirement @ 5F outdoor temperature is only 22k Btu. I also estimated electricity consumption from the heat pump with assumption of heat pump average COF, and using heating degree days from some weather website. It matches my bill (minus baseline) within 50 kwh.

One thing I hate about the hvac industry is how they are indiscrimnately applying rule of thumb of ~30-40 btu/hr * sq ft for heating, while my place is only 22000/2400 = 9.2 btu/hr * sq ft. Passive house standard is 1 Btu/hr * sq ft..scary!

[BostonMike7]

Originally Posted by kyva1929

How many therms was it for $170?

I'll have to get online and look it up. Bill got tossed after I paid. Need to login and do the "forgot my password" thing tomorrow and see if I can find the info out that way

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by BostonMike7

I'll have to get online and look it up. Bill got tossed after I paid. Need to login and do the "forgot my password" thing tomorrow and see if I can find the info out that way

haha nah thats too much trouble. I would guess it might be about ~140 therms assuming $1.2/therm from another reply.

Putting things into perspective if you were using electric heat instead it would be ~4100 kwh, really scary. With a heat pump it will probably be around 4100/2.7 = 1500 kwh, not as bad.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by kyva1929

haha nah thats too much trouble. I would guess it might be about ~140 therms assuming $1.2/therm from another reply.

Putting things into perspective if you were using electric heat instead it would be ~4100 kwh, really scary. With a heat pump it will probably be around 4100/2.7 = 1500 kwh, not as bad.

I hadn't done the math.

For natural gas, I pay about $1.25 per therm. I pay about 21 cents per kwh for electricity. Both are outrageous by national standards.

Using your 2.7 number for the heat pump compared to resistance coil heating, 21 cents per kwh, and 29.3 kwh per therm, that's equivalent to paying $2.28 per therm.

My 2010 Peerless gas boiler is only about 82% efficient and I don't trust the new high efficiency boilers.

It looks like a heat pump is about 1.5x more expensive than natural gas with an 82%-efficient boiler at the rates I'm paying for electricity and natural gas. A heat pump is only a win if you also put solar panels on your roof.

I thought a heat pump was cheaper than natural gas. Not quite.

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

I hadn't done the math.

For natural gas, I pay about $1.25 per therm. I pay about 21 cents per kwh for electricity. Both are outrageous by national standards.

Using your 2.7 number for the heat pump compared to resistance coil heating, 21 cents per kwh, and 29.3 kwh per therm, that's equivalent to paying $2.28 per therm.

My 2010 Peerless gas boiler is only about 82% efficient and I don't trust the new high efficiency boilers.

It looks like a heat pump is about 1.5x more expensive than natural gas with an 82%-efficient boiler at the rates I'm paying for electricity and natural gas. A heat pump is only a win if you also put solar panels on your roof.

I thought a heat pump was cheaper than natural gas. Not quite.

21 cents / kwh thats pretty insane - we are paying about 17 cents / kwh after delivery is included. Not good, but definitely not as scary.

For us getting rid of much of the air ducts and chimney is worth the small premium we pay for using heat pump over NG furnance / boiler. Even though I quoted 2.7 COP for the more "average" high efficiency low temp heat pump, mine seems to be doing closer to 3.3 COP thanks to inverter compressor being a lot more efficient at partial load.

For us we seem to be paying a little bit less than 10% over using natural, and this is without considering how generally leaky air duct negatively affect the thermal performance of a house. We are pretty happy with our decision, and oh just think about all those solar panels...