How much did you spend for heating in the month of december?

[Shrewsburried]

Originally Posted by Louisville Slugger

Damn you National Grid:

$301.57 for 1,550 kWh during the period of 12/13/16 to 01/17/17.

Delivery:



Supply:



0.19456 $/kWh.

My bill would be $182.02 if my condo was in Shrewsbury.

Shrewbury Electric and Cable Operations

($0.11556 * 1,550 kWh) + $2.90 (Customer Charge)

Almost a $120 difference.

It would be nice if National Grid could offer customers heating with electric a reduced rate since we use more electricity.

You see far more heat pumps in central MA as many towns (Shrewsbury, Sterling, Holden, etc.) have their own utilities management and rates are notably cheaper. Sterling's rate is roughly 37% cheaper than your N-Grid rate and their renewable/clean focused (hydro and nuclear). N-Grid seems to be largely natural gas plants.

[wolfgang239]

Originally Posted by Shrewsburried

You see far more heat pumps in central MA as many towns (Shrewsbury, Sterling, Holden, etc.) have their own utilities management and rates are notably cheaper. Sterling's rate is roughly 37% cheaper than your N-Grid rate and their renewable/clean focused (hydro and nuclear). N-Grid seems to be largely natural gas plants.

All utilities pay the same wholesale rate and pass it on to customers. They don't choose the diversity of their generation supply. Local utilities have much lower overhead costs. Maybe 2-3 line trucks, 20 employees, no executives or stockholders to answer to, one or two substations that Grid/Nstar owns the high voltage side of, etc. The revenues only pay for the department and a slush fund for future upgrades.

Grid has 50,000 employees, a large transmission and distribution system, thousands of line trucks, a forestry department, a legal department, accounting, stockholders and an executive board, etc etc. The costs add up.

[Louisville Slugger]

Originally Posted by Shrewsburried

You see far more heat pumps in central MA as many towns (Shrewsbury, Sterling, Holden, etc.) have their own utilities management and rates are notably cheaper. Sterling's rate is roughly 37% cheaper than your N-Grid rate and their renewable/clean focused (hydro and nuclear). N-Grid seems to be largely natural gas plants.

Yeah, not sure if it would be worth investing in a ductless mini-split for my first floor only (high ceilings). Finished basement usually stays much cooler in the summer and I can close doors down there in the winter to keep heat in rooms. Upstairs is totally open and the ceilings are much higher. I am trying to figure out how much less electricity I'd use if I shut off all the baseboards upstairs, use a mini-split, and kept everything the same as is in the basement.

I am averaging around 400 kWh in the summer months so you figure my last bill (1,550 kWH), less 400 kWh equals 1,150 kWh. So I estimate 1,150 kWh out of the 1,550 kWh were used by my electric baseboards. The other 400 came from appliances, lights, water heater, TV, etc.

If the mini-split upstairs were to use half (575 kWh) the electricity and that's probably very generous, thats 2,300 kWh over four months or $460 saved over the winter.

We're still looking at five years to break even on the cost of installing the mini-split. Assuming I can get a one zone split that will heat and cool approximately 450 sq-ft (first floor) no problem for $2,500.

The real solution would be to find ways to reduce the cost per kwh. So what if I keep using less and less kWh per year? Doesn't matter if the costs keep going up.

[Shrewsburried]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

All utilities pay the same wholesale rate and pass it on to customers. They don't choose the diversity of their generation supply. Local utilities have much lower overhead costs. Maybe 2-3 line trucks, 20 employees, no executives or stockholders to answer to, one or two substations that Grid/Nstar owns the high voltage side of, etc. The revenues only pay for the department and a slush fund for future upgrades.

Grid has 50,000 employees, a large transmission and distribution system, thousands of line trucks, a forestry department, a legal department, accounting, stockholders and an executive board, etc etc. The costs add up.

Sterling, Shrewsbury, West Boylston, etc. are all members of the MMWEC, which seems to have a distinctly different generation portfolio than that of National Grid, which is largely natural gas. National Grid, N-Star, etc. might handle some (or all) of the transmission, but it seems like power generation does in fact vary between the MMWEC and N-Star, N-Grid, etc.

But I'm naive to how the infrastructure works.

[wolfgang239]

Originally Posted by Shrewsburried

Sterling, Shrewsbury, West Boylston, etc. are all members of the MMWEC, which seems to have a distinctly different generation portfolio than that of National Grid, which is largely natural gas. National Grid, N-Star, etc. might handle some (or all) of the transmission, but it seems like power generation does in fact vary between the MMWEC and N-Star, N-Grid, etc.

But I'm naive to how the infrastructure works.

Sorry for spinning the thread in a new direction! But National Grid and NStar don't own any generation as a result of deregulation from years ago. This MMWEC Newsletter's first and second pages loosely describe their involvement in the wholesale market, but that is a long boring topic for another day. All utilities within the ISO-NE region basically pay the same amount for generation.

Think of it like the getting gasoline. You might not be getting the physical product from a refinery in Maine, but their prices influence the cost of the gasoline being made in Revere.

I'll be the first to admit that is a dumb system that only means we pay more than we should.

[Shrewsburried]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

Sorry for spinning the thread in a new direction! But National Grid and NStar don't own any generation as a result of deregulation from years ago. This MMWEC Newsletter's first and second pages loosely describe their involvement in the wholesale market, but that is a long boring topic for another day. All utilities within the ISO-NE region basically pay the same amount for generation.

Think of it like the getting gasoline. You might not be getting the physical product from a refinery in Maine, but their prices influence the cost of the gasoline being made in Revere.

I'll be the first to admit that is a dumb system that only means we pay more than we should.

Understood. I addressed power generation as your prior post seemed to suggest everyone's utilizing the same power generation sources ... when really you meant ISO's capacity and transmission services and the market prices it drives ... I think.

Anyway, I prefer the town municipals as they theoretically function as a non-profit and, at least in Sterling and nearby towns, are actively looking to curb rising utility costs. Both Sterling and West Boylston have made solar investments and Sterling recently, through a grant, invested in a battery storage system for one of their substations ... the intent being to reduce peak usage costs.

As a non-shareholder, I felt like National Grid was actively bending me over.

As someone who owns 2 acres of south facing hill, I'm waiting for solar costs to drive lower and a tangible home storage solutions which can be reasonably amortized. A man can dream.

[Cloudship]

Don't just think solar electric. Solar hot water is also an option. If you have a good location - south facing, no trees, elevated lot, it can pan out pretty well. But the issue with solar is that it depends so greatly on local lot conditions.

[kyva1929]

Originally Posted by wolfgang239

All utilities pay the same wholesale rate and pass it on to customers. They don't choose the diversity of their generation supply. Local utilities have much lower overhead costs. Maybe 2-3 line trucks, 20 employees, no executives or stockholders to answer to, one or two substations that Grid/Nstar owns the high voltage side of, etc. The revenues only pay for the department and a slush fund for future upgrades.

Grid has 50,000 employees, a large transmission and distribution system, thousands of line trucks, a forestry department, a legal department, accounting, stockholders and an executive board, etc etc. The costs add up.

So economies of scale doesn't apply to utilities company i.e. the larger you get the more expensive it is to deliver one unit of goods/service.

[wolfgang239]

Originally Posted by kyva1929

So economies of scale doesn't apply to utilities company i.e. the larger you get the more expensive it is to deliver one unit of goods/service.

It gets really blurry when you are dealing with companies the size and complexity of Eversource or National Grid. That idea is true up to a point. They obviously have way more revenue with more customers and get to charge them for projects and improvements. The more they spend the more they profit or justify rate increases.

Munis have a tiny territory. They don't need to constantly build out their system to handle large regional power transfers. Their motive isn't profit.