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Old 05-07-2017, 07:06 PM
 
5,528 posts, read 3,201,891 times
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So I was looking at real estate listings online and noticed a number of listings in the "McKnight" neighborhood of Springfield that were absolutely stunning...and super affordable.

The school ratings for Springfield were not good (1/10, 2/10), but let's just pretend kids are not in the mix.

How can these houses, which have craftsmanship that is amazing, be selling way below contemporary build cost?

I then checked C-D and saw that Springfield has incomes about half the Massachusetts average. So that explains the low prices - low incomes and lack of jobs.

What if you could obtain a remote work from home situation with a big city income?

Is Springfield a dangerous place that has yet to hit bottom? Or is it just a depressed place where there are no jobs? Or both?

I noticed on at least one of these listings that the house is selling for less than it sold for several years ago, which does not augur well in the short term.

At some point though these neighborhoods have to hit bottom. Young people are already moving away from big cities because of cost. "Urban pioneering" may become "hinterland pioneering", especially with remote work growing. Even if it doesn't and Springfield never recovers, you could live in a literal mansion that cost as much as a tract house in Texas. The only concerns then are crime and safety, and the city raising taxes to compensate for a shrinking tax base.

I checked the taxes for this house and they are high by national standards but still way affordable given what you are getting.

Is Springfield really that bad? Or is it just down on its luck, and it has good enough bones to recover?
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:47 PM
 
3,176 posts, read 3,666,552 times
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It's a dump surrounded by the middle of nowhere. There aren't enough high paying jobs for the local population so anyone with economic mobility got the hell out years ago.

There's a poster on this forum who will soon swoop in and tell you that the presence of transatlantic flights on an ultra low cost carrier from Hartford means Springfield is on the rebound- it's not.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:21 PM
 
Location: East Coast
4,235 posts, read 3,675,929 times
Reputation: 6458
I don't buy that young people are really leaving the cities in droves. Most of what I hear is that walkability is really important to them, and you can't be rural to find that.

I have not been to Springfield, so I can't speak to its attributes directly. But I can see that it is not commutable to any major employment hub, and it's not real close to other amenities people want or need -- museums, an ocean, major hospitals, major colleges, or any significant industry. So it's not going to draw a lot of new people.

Detroit had some beautiful, huge mansions that ended up being sold for amounts you could charge on a credit card. Basically Detroit had nowhere to go but up, and I think it will make an interesting case study because it could rebound nicely. But Springfield doesn't even have the history or infrastructure (such as it is) that was in Detroit.

Being able to work remotely isn't going to be enough of a factor to drive people to a place like Springfield. There would have to be other reasons people want to be there specifically. And I'm not aware of any of those things in Springfield.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:24 PM
 
Location: North Quabbin, MA
1,025 posts, read 1,516,680 times
Reputation: 2675
A new wave of innovation works remotely and in unexpected geographic locations, the beauty of the digital age. Third and fourth tier cities and small towns are already seeing some uptick because of this, even if it may be just about invisible to the 21st century's metropolitan nouveau riche in overpriced bubbles like contemporary greater Boston. People can and do have both worlds. You may be a rich snobby fruckhead who made lucrative professional choices enjoying your six-figure 21st century standard, but a growing swell of equally highly educated folks who can no longer afford the traffic-choked overpriced McMansion hellscape are out there repopulating the hinterlands and secondary cities and towns, enjoying access to real nature and large homes, negligible commute times and spare time to be creative.

Not saying Springfield is the epitome of this, it's still a dump, but that phenomenon has arrived in Western Mass and other spots generally considered provincial in recent decades by megalopolis dwellers. You no longer MUST go to a mega-city to have the world economy and creative movements at your fingertips. And if you're not a giant tool and have some parenting skills, your kids probably can make it in any schools, even Springfield. A highly educated millennial couple who were told lies by their boomer parents about economic continuity and opportunity, now needing to get by with total incomes of merely $80k+ can afford a McKnight mansion but can't even think about a shack in Boston. They may be considered unfathomably trashy failures by Needham standards, yet might have a bigger house than people there.

Limited recovery of places like Springfield may follow. Already seeing it in Lowell and New Bedford and Worcester, and western Mass signs of it in Easthampton, Holyoke and Greenfield. People who 20 years ago could have done pre-gentrified Somerville now finding ways to make it outside the beltway out of economic necessity, amplified by a digital era that enables some to still partake in global commerce and a slow lift that will start making our so-called wastelands more vibrant in coming decades.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:49 PM
 
Location: near bears but at least no snakes
26,637 posts, read 28,446,887 times
Reputation: 50443
Having grown up near Springfield, I know some things about it. It was called the City of Homes. It had a beautiful, vibrant downtown teeming with people.
The department stores were probably similar to your Jordan Marsh in Boston, along with numerous small, fancy shops. There was a famous bookstore where you could lose yourself for an entire day too.

It's just gone.

I wouldn't set foot in Springfield ever again except to revisit Forest Park where we used to play or feed the ducks. Forest Park has been cleaned up and is one gorgeous park, a prime example of the work of Frederick Law Olmstead who designed Central Park.

The central library is still there, I assume. And the statue of the Puritan is still on its lawn, I hope. And the museums are still standing, I have heard. But I will not go there again so they live only in memory for me.

Many years ago I drove along Maple St past lovely old mansions, probably recently abandoned. I saw what had become of the beautiful downtown too. And one time we drove through with my in laws and were approached by a group of prostitutes as we sat at a stop sign. Another time we tried to buy a pizza and the clerk yelled at my husband, "Stand back! Stand back!" He was made to stand behind a line on the floor and we think maybe they were scared that customers were criminals or were going to kill them. And another time, someone ran out of a furniture store with a lamp and the salesperson who was helping me took off running after him. He later said that it happened all the time. It leaves you feeling very strange. I won't go to that sad city anymore.

Now they're building just what Springfield does NOT need: a gambling casino. Not businesses, not something that could add to the city. Something that will probably attract more of the type that inhabits the South End of Springfield--the type that messed up Boston's Big Dig. Organized crime has not died out; it never does. Just what Springfield needs more of!

It's not a safe place and there doesn't seem to be much left of anything that's good. Sure, there are weak attempts to fix it up but that's been going on for maybe forty years, fail, fail, fail. One time they built some sort of sculpture on Worthington St but it was soon vandalized. That was probably back in the '70s. Why bother? The people who live there are not the same people who used to live there. The place is not going to come up in the world because if people want to live around there they can live in a nice town, not Springfield.

It's not like Boston where there's a flourishing city and people want to be near it. That situation gives the surrounding towns a leg up. People move in and gentrify the towns. Not going to happen with Springfield. There's nothing to go there for now and it's not even safe. A casino is only going to make things worse.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:46 PM
 
Location: East Coast
4,235 posts, read 3,675,929 times
Reputation: 6458
Quote:
Originally Posted by FCMA View Post
A new wave of innovation works remotely and in unexpected geographic locations, the beauty of the digital age. Third and fourth tier cities and small towns are already seeing some uptick because of this, even if it may be just about invisible to the 21st century's metropolitan nouveau riche in overpriced bubbles like contemporary greater Boston. People can and do have both worlds. You may be a rich snobby fruckhead who made lucrative professional choices enjoying your six-figure 21st century standard, but a growing swell of equally highly educated folks who can no longer afford the traffic-choked overpriced McMansion hellscape are out there repopulating the hinterlands and secondary cities and towns, enjoying access to real nature and large homes, negligible commute times and spare time to be creative.

Not saying Springfield is the epitome of this, it's still a dump, but that phenomenon has arrived in Western Mass and other spots generally considered provincial in recent decades by megalopolis dwellers. You no longer MUST go to a mega-city to have the world economy and creative movements at your fingertips. And if you're not a giant tool and have some parenting skills, your kids probably can make it in any schools, even Springfield. A highly educated millennial couple who were told lies by their boomer parents about economic continuity and opportunity, now needing to get by with total incomes of merely $80k+ can afford a McKnight mansion but can't even think about a shack in Boston. They may be considered unfathomably trashy failures by Needham standards, yet might have a bigger house than people there.

Limited recovery of places like Springfield may follow. Already seeing it in Lowell and New Bedford and Worcester, and western Mass signs of it in Easthampton, Holyoke and Greenfield. People who 20 years ago could have done pre-gentrified Somerville now finding ways to make it outside the beltway out of economic necessity, amplified by a digital era that enables some to still partake in global commerce and a slow lift that will start making our so-called wastelands more vibrant in coming decades.
There have always been people who would prefer living someplace remote, like Vermont or parts of Maine, or by the sea or the lake, or deep in the mountains. And now telecommuting does make that possible for them. But people who otherwise would want a city aren't going to do that. They might, as you indicate, go to smaller or less expensive cities. College towns -- a city like Amherst or Northampton, for example, would be choices that many people make, especially if they went to college in that particular town. Other people will leave for lower cost of living cities, such as Raleigh or Charlotte, NC, or maybe someplace like Portland, ME. Still others choose to remain in the large, expensive cities, but decide to live in small condos or apartments, giving up the idea of the SFH in a planned neighborhood. But they're not going to go to a failing city like Springfield. It might revitalize at some point, but that point is way too far in the future right now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
Having grown up near Springfield, I know some things about it. It was called the City of Homes. It had a beautiful, vibrant downtown teeming with people.
The department stores were probably similar to your Jordan Marsh in Boston, along with numerous small, fancy shops. There was a famous bookstore where you could lose yourself for an entire day too.

It's just gone.

I wouldn't set foot in Springfield ever again except to revisit Forest Park where we used to play or feed the ducks. Forest Park has been cleaned up and is one gorgeous park, a prime example of the work of Frederick Law Olmstead who designed Central Park.

The central library is still there, I assume. And the statue of the Puritan is still on its lawn, I hope. And the museums are still standing, I have heard. But I will not go there again so they live only in memory for me.

Many years ago I drove along Maple St past lovely old mansions, probably recently abandoned. I saw what had become of the beautiful downtown too. And one time we drove through with my in laws and were approached by a group of prostitutes as we sat at a stop sign. Another time we tried to buy a pizza and the clerk yelled at my husband, "Stand back! Stand back!" He was made to stand behind a line on the floor and we think maybe they were scared that customers were criminals or were going to kill them. And another time, someone ran out of a furniture store with a lamp and the salesperson who was helping me took off running after him. He later said that it happened all the time. It leaves you feeling very strange. I won't go to that sad city anymore.

Now they're building just what Springfield does NOT need: a gambling casino. Not businesses, not something that could add to the city. Something that will probably attract more of the type that inhabits the South End of Springfield--the type that messed up Boston's Big Dig. Organized crime has not died out; it never does. Just what Springfield needs more of!

It's not a safe place and there doesn't seem to be much left of anything that's good. Sure, there are weak attempts to fix it up but that's been going on for maybe forty years, fail, fail, fail. One time they built some sort of sculpture on Worthington St but it was soon vandalized. That was probably back in the '70s. Why bother? The people who live there are not the same people who used to live there. The place is not going to come up in the world because if people want to live around there they can live in a nice town, not Springfield.

It's not like Boston where there's a flourishing city and people want to be near it. That situation gives the surrounding towns a leg up. People move in and gentrify the towns. Not going to happen with Springfield. There's nothing to go there for now and it's not even safe. A casino is only going to make things worse.
This is one of the saddest things I've read. From what you say, I don't see what will spark a revitalization. It's a long, long way off.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:18 PM
 
Location: near bears but at least no snakes
26,637 posts, read 28,446,887 times
Reputation: 50443
This is one of the saddest things I've read. From what you say, I don't see what will spark a revitalization. It's a long, long way off.

It makes me sad too. And angry. What a wonderful place it used to be!

The area to the north around Northampton is spreading out but it's not going to spread south to Springfield. For one thing, Springfield is just too dangerous.

Such beautiful buildings, such a long history--but what good is it? I don't know why something couldn't have been done to stop the downfall. And what's to the south of it but another fallen city: Hartford.

Its location used to help--on a major river, between Boston and NYC, on the railroad line. Northampton was just a rundown little place back then.

I guess there have to be places where crime rules and poor people dwell.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:45 AM
 
1,127 posts, read 1,246,767 times
Reputation: 1632
I think you may be overstating it, INL, though I often agree with you. I live in Northampton (Florence, actually) and commute to Springfield; have done so for years. I have never even seen a crime. No danger. The McKnight neighborhood is indeed lovely. The city isn't what it once was, but I optimistic for its future. We shall see.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:30 AM
 
1,683 posts, read 2,880,992 times
Reputation: 2151
At this point I think Holyoke has a higher upside than Springfield. The mills, cheap electricity, better proximity to Amherst, and a more forward thinking city government.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:05 AM
 
235 posts, read 260,705 times
Reputation: 237
Casino in Springfield? Wasn't the casino referrendum shot down?

Regardless of a city or town's condition, I would not want to live in a house more expensive than the general area. I would want to live in a house that "blends in" so-to-say. So IMHO, buying a relatively cheap mansion in a run down area as a "bargain" with the hope of future gentrification is not a good investment. I can get better returns on the stock market with much less hassle and no property taxes.
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