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Both the initially proposed (eventually dropped) Providence and later final Pawtucket sites were along the banks of rivers. The downtown Providence site was where the highway USED to be as it crossed the Providence River. It is right by downtown in an area that is seeing lots of new development on the old Route 195 land. It is now a park that has been incorporated with the popular new pedestrian bridge. The downtown Pawtucket site was going to be on the old Apex Dept Store site adjoining Route 95 along the banks of the Blackstone/Seekonk River diagonally across from the Slater Mill Historic Site. There were plans to construct a pedestrian only bridge next to it. The new arched Route 95 bridge with an alternating neon lighting scheme below the road deck would have been the evening backdrop.
The Worcester ballpark is being built in an industrial area across from a former hazardous waste site next to an elevated rail line that cuts it off from downtown. The area is named the Canal District but there is no longer water anywhere nearby to see as the city long ago covered up the waterway due to its polluted state.
While some may like having a ballpark near many restaurants and bars, I am not sure that is the case for all. The great majority of patrons that frequented PawSox games helping push the average per game attendance near 10k for a decade (late 1990's to about 2010) were mostly retirees and families with young children. They were budget conscious and wanted free close by parking and a cheap night out. They were not interested in going to local bars and restaurants as just taking in a game was their objective. They were quite content with the ballpark concessions as it was part of the "experience". I believe that this demo group will be less likely to attend games in a new ballpark (wherever that was to be).
No one is claiming there were/are real safety concerns.
The reality is for a significant amount of minor league attendees the game is little more than a social gathering. Having the stadium located within a safe and comfortable distance to a block of viable restaurants/bars is a huge boon for gaining more casual fans ... which I'd argue is the majority.
Neither McCoy or the Providence site really offered that which likely played a part in the decision along with the financial incentives (which, in practice, I absolutely despise).
To be fair to the proposed Providence site, the surrounding neighbor has cleaned up a fair amount and there are a handful of small eateries. This said, I know the area very well and, given the power station, array of larger industrial/commercial buildings, and highway overpasses, it was never going to replicate the same dense commercial feel of the Canal St. area in Worcester. Love it or hate it, that area of Worcester already has draw with 20-30 somethings due to the Birch Tree 'complex' and surrounding restaurants/bars ... all of which are a stones throw from the new stadium.
It also resolves the city's brownfield issue, an unpleasant relic of Wyman Gordon Co., which has been an burden on the area for many decades. This point has been argued ad nauseam.
I don't have experience with other minor league ballparks, but what you're describing wasn't even close to reality at McCoy. It was always a family environment, not a social gathering for 20-30 something casual fans.
The demographic that you speak of may be drawn to the ballpark in Worcester. That's apparently one of the goals. I'd argue, though, that that crowd can't be the main draw or relied upon to be the main draw. A strong following of loyal and engaged fans is necessary to be successful.
While some may like having a ballpark near many restaurants and bars, I am not sure that is the case for all. The great majority of patrons that frequented PawSox games helping push the average per game attendance near 10k for a decade (late 1990's to about 2010) were mostly retirees and families with young children. They were budget conscious and wanted free close by parking and a cheap night out. They were not interested in going to local bars and restaurants as just taking in a game was their objective. They were quite content with the ballpark concessions as it was part of the "experience". I believe that this demo group will be less likely to attend games in a new ballpark (wherever that was to be).
Yes, and those patrons are now either dead or their children are attending UMass Amherst.
Tastes and expectations change which is why, in part, attendance plummeted over the past decade. The current families who both have children and the time/financial means to attend a minor league game are middle and upper middle class.
These are the same families one sees at Treehouse Brewery on weekends (pre pandemic). No, those within this demographic will not "settle" for a McCoy environment.
Here's the opening and concluding paragraphs of a recent white paper written for a Cleveland affiliate:
The spectators agreed that all factors played a huge role in motivating them to attend the Lake County Captains Minor League Baseball. Age, household income, and education levels had the most significant effects on attendance. When arranging a plan to increase attendance, it is essential to focus on the 25-36 age group, individuals who earned $40,000-$59,000 a year, and participants who obtained bachelor’s andmaster’s degrees, the largest groups in attendance at the game. It appears that the primary motivating factors for the adolescents would be socialization and enjoyment.
Based on team affiliation, it appeared that fans would attend regardless of the team win/loss record, attend due to promotional events, attend due to the Cleveland Indians affiliation, and the team has star players. Overall, one group to focus on when arranging a plan to increase attendance would be the 25-36age group. Those individuals were the largest group in attendance at the game. It appears that the primary motivating factors would be socialization and enjoyment.
It's quite clear when reading the white paper that those advising the team suggested stadium planning not alienate 50-61 year old demographics (which are the second largest attendees), but should focus on attracting 25-36 year olds who may or may not have children in attendance and place a much higher value on stadium amenities and immediate surrounding locations.
I don't have experience with other minor league ballparks, but what you're describing wasn't even close to reality at McCoy. It was always a family environment, not a social gathering for 20-30 something casual fans.
The demographic that you speak of may be drawn to the ballpark in Worcester. That's apparently one of the goals. I'd argue, though, that that crowd can't be the main draw or relied upon to be the main draw. A strong following of loyal and engaged fans is necessary to be successful.
Yes, that is my point. If you look at demographic splits the sub-50 crowd is overwhelmingly within the "casual" column. Posters such as yourself or OP do not represent the "fans" current affiliates are looking to draw ... the avid fans will inherently come if convenient and appropriately priced.
McCoy was dominated by families and geriatrics because they were the only ones willing to drive to Pawtucket to watch a baseball game. That doesn't mean a stadium in Providence or the new Worcester stadium would/will adhere to the same demographics. I doubt it based off my limited experience at Portland and Lowell games.
Yes, that is my point. If you look at demographic splits the sub-50 crowd is overwhelmingly within the "casual" column. Posters such as yourself or OP do not represent the "fans" current affiliates are looking to draw ... the avid fans will inherently come if convenient and appropriately priced.
McCoy was dominated by families and geriatrics because they were the only ones willing to drive to Pawtucket to watch a baseball game. That doesn't mean a stadium in Providence or the new Worcester stadium would/will adhere to the same demographics. I doubt it based off my limited experience at Portland and Lowell games.
See my above post.
I never been to Portland or Lowell games. Are they vastly different from Pawtucket?
I never been to Portland or Lowell games. Are they vastly different from Pawtucket?
I haven't been to a SeaDog's game since I left Portland in 2010, but the were very, very heavy skewed toward young children and families 10 years ago. Even more so than Pawtucket. The mascot (Slugger), and all of the in-game activities seemed to be geared towards elementary school aged children. Most of the promos on the website were geared toward the same demographic. I was in my mid-20s and we regularly got free tickets from the team as we lived in the neighborhood (they'd just appear in our mailbox) about a 10 minute walk from the park. We'd generally pop in and leave after 2-3 innings as we were clearly not the intended audience. Around the same time, Pawtucket used to do more "adult" promos, had a better beer selection, and had more adult events (even though it was still very kid friendly). But it's probably changed since then.
I never been to Portland or Lowell games. Are they vastly different from Pawtucket?
I haven’t been to McCoy in well over a decade so I can’t provide great contrast between the crowds.
My experience with Lowell, as an example, is that the crowd largely consisted of young families from the neighboring suburbs and, to a lesser degree, 18-45 coworkers/friends who either work or live in Lowell itself. Often the groups were a mix of both ... some singles drinking/socializing and their follow coworker’s SO meeting up with the kids.
We used to buy row blocks for the Spinners and effectively use it as an entertaining “pre game” prior to our downtown bar crawls. My friends in Nashua would do the same with the Knights games as it’s on the fringe of the Nashua’s main drag of bars/restaurants. Now that maybe 40-50% of my social network has kids, these minor league games become a reasonable compromise for all parties ... the childless can hit the bar after and those with kids can enjoy a round or two with friends while their kids are moderately amused by game time happenings.
Edit/note: part of the reason we would use the Spinners/Knights as effectively a “social happy hour” was the corniness which Irfox points out. They have so many gimmicks meant to appeal to kids which, with the right expectations, also becomes the perfect environment to drink crap beer with friends. We all liked baseball in some capacity, but the motivation to go was definitely the short beer lines and absurd low buck antics.
Last edited by Shrewsburried; 07-21-2020 at 02:31 PM..
Yes, and those patrons are now either dead or their children are attending UMass Amherst.
Tastes and expectations change which is why, in part, attendance plummeted over the past decade.
From what I've seen (and, again, this is limited to the PawSox at McCoy), it's often a cycle.
Typically parents with kids age 6 to 15 will go to the games. The grandparents may tag along.
The kids usually lose interest after age 15 and the whole family stops going to the games.
When the kids become adults and have their own kids (again, age 6 to 15), the process repeats.
It's not that tastes and expectations changed, the kids simply outgrew it. There's nothing different that the PawSox could have done to get those families to continue going to the games.
I also don't think we should assume that the demographics are going to be the same at all minor league ballparks. The owners of the PawSox seem to agree with you that tastes and expectations change - hence the desire to move away from McCoy. They are looking to attract the people you've described (20-30 something casual fans who want to frequent nearby bars and restaurants) in addition to the families described above. In a perfect world, they'd get what they're looking for. It's not a perfect world, though, and I don't think they will attract as many families - mainly due to higher prices.
From what I've seen (and, again, this is limited to the PawSox at McCoy), it's often a cycle.
Typically parents with kids age 6 to 15 will go to the games. The grandparents may tag along.
The kids usually lose interest after age 15 and the whole family stops going to the games.
When the kids become adults and have their own kids (again, age 6 to 15), the process repeats.
It's not that tastes and expectations changed, the kids simply outgrew it. There's nothing different that the PawSox could have done to get those families to continue going to the games.
I also don't think we should assume that the demographics are going to be the same at all minor league ballparks. The owners of the PawSox seem to agree with you that tastes and expectations change - hence the desire to move away from McCoy. They are looking to attract the people you've described (20-30 something casual fans who want to frequent nearby bars and restaurants) in addition to the families described above. In a perfect world, they'd get what they're looking for. It's not a perfect world, though, and I don't think they will attract as many families - mainly due to higher prices.
But there is a lot more money in metrowest who won’t mind paying those prices.
But there is a lot more money in metrowest who won’t mind paying those prices.
And the great majority of that money looks east toward Boston for entertainment options. People with money will more likely choose to see the BoSox over the WooSox more often than not. Besides the trip into Boston is about the same for them.
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