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I don't see how the South Coast economy will ever support higher housing prices other than waterfront and the gated summer communities which are already expensive. Look at median household income for the towns. The South Coast has no 6 figure median household income towns.
But saying that, most of the Cape doesn't have incomes that high either. Look what happened with the RE prices there...
"Only if the conditions are right. Those conditions may never exist in a place like Holyoke. "
Right but much of this is spillover. This isn't to say that somehow this is on purpose but if prices go up in one area it can cause people to leave to a poorer area and displace the people that are poorer there. You also have to keep in mind not all of a given town or city is the same. Northampton st in Holyoke looks like Northampton itself. The city center often times looks like 1985 didn't end. Seriously I saw someone with a bradlees shopping bag. There's still a kmart and years ago a radio shack. Anyways the rail with things like Cubit and the push towards a massive marijuana industry certainly can have some changes. The electricity is dirt cheap and is why the computing center is there instead of Lexington (it's half the price).
"Nope, and the younger generation often isn't qualified to take over (not the home grown anyway). They either fold, or import their workers from elsewhere. "
Too bad gramps there's only so long someone can work. Importing workers with this president? Good luck with that. I'm not for him at all but it is what's happening. https://www.politico.com/interactive...-visas-decline
Having said that outsourcing still happens and to be honest it's probably better to sponsor and import rather than outright outsource.
"Suburbs are not where jobs are many of them are, certainly more so than Holyoke and frankly younger people don't want to drive but they do otherwise they'd be buying cars that's certainly news to the dealerships, and the entire auto industry who now caters/markets towards the younger crowd more than any other generation let alone driving them again, what roads have you been driving on?"
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...ulture/561290/
"According to the Federal Highway Administration, the percentage of American 16-year-olds with driver’s licenses was roughly 25 percent in 2014, a steep drop from about 46 percent in 1983. "
that's a pretty big decline. There's no debate that cars keep increasing in price, trucks are nearly 45K now new. Add in access to ride sharing like Lyft and zipcar, buying online, teleconferencing online and it keeps removing the need to drive. Heck I just started a new job last month and they are allowing telecommuting for certain situations.
"Youths are leaving suburbs a some do like they always have (usually to a legit city as opposed to HOLYOKE though), once they start popping out kids they will be back (again like they always have) because frankly there isn't anything for them except for good housing, schools, shopping, and all other modern amenities that most families require. I numbed Moore the other day at the Victoria Ball. Look it up. Think the suburbs can pull something like that off? Probably not. The constant obsession of housing at all costs erodes reasons to stay. Not following you at all"
Uh..good housing? Are you aware of the concrete issue? Nearly 10% of homes in Longmeadow are going to have to be demoed. 10K homes in Mass fall under it and 25K in CT. This will cost easily billions of dollars. Long story short is that these foundations have materials lead them to breakdown. It's from homes from about 1983. Suburbs have plenty of these but not Holyoke, Springfield, Hartford etc. You cannot tax a house if it cannot be a legal dwelling. So the drain locally will be significant. Local governments don't have the money for this, the states don't and the feds say it isn't an emergency since it happened gradually over 35 years.
Schools? Well why not live in a cheaper area and send the kid to private school? Of course buying in the 128 belt is more of a long term investment. You have eight or so districts that are feeder schools for Harvard so it's like buying your grandkids education ahead of time. But for regular suburbs outside of it.... Shopping? Have you heard of amazon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FCMA
The whole reason that the Valley remains MA’s secret awesome corner boils down to a razor point of nouveau comparative financial mediocrity.
Some of us HATE THE SUBURBS and probably can’t afford to live in them anyways. Contemporary metro Boston COL has made it so you either need to be a HAVE (IN ALL CAPS) or gtfo the 128 belt. People with a soul don’t really want to live in Burlington or Sharon or Leominster anyways, and about the only places left in the state for us economic semi-rejects to live an interesting life for cheap, work remotely tmaybe, might be Worcester (sorta) and Springfield (sorta even less) or maybe flee towards New Bedford or out west to the Holyoke and Greenfield rust belt. Not much left in between brackets except North/Easthampton and Lawrence. Just don’t have babies because they’ll go to school with actual poor kids who suffer and bring down the MCAS scores, not what c-d posters with $900k+ Newton budgets for little Brody and Phoebe will tolerate.
I wouldn't say I hate suburbs but when it comes down to it there has to be a policy of promoting economic and community growth. If there's extremes it can create much higher traffic and sprawl. I think much of the state is U shaped. You have your affluent communities that frankly can afford to pay for anything on one piece, you have your gateway cities that get state funding on the other side but on the bottom are those that frankly have harder times governing and just don't have the funds to really do anything. Some people like living in cities and want to stay there but will go to cheaper cities. There's evidence that those from Roxbury are going to Brockton. https://www.wgbh.org/news/local-news...ts-to-brockton
Are you aware of the concrete issue? Nearly 10% of homes in Longmeadow are going to have to be demoed.
No, 10 percent of the homes in Longmeadow were built between 1983 and 2017. That doesn't mean all of them used the same concrete supplier, and that doesn't mean none of the houses with deteriorating foundations will be repaired.
As for the rest of the argument, replace "Holyoke" with "Somerville" and reread. No one can predict the future of an area.
Too bad gramps there's only so long someone can work. Importing workers with this president? Good luck with that. I'm not for him at all but it is what's happening. https://www.politico.com/interactive...-visas-decline
Having said that outsourcing still happens and to be honest it's probably better to sponsor and import rather than outright outsource.
Totally garbage article, if you ask me. For one thing it can't explain WHY there is a drop, secondly it doesn't distinguish between the different types of visas. Is there a huge drop in temporary worker visas? If so, how much? Show some actual proof that there is a decline in skilled workers available for import. And if that was even the case, that doesn't solve the problem of not having young American workers qualified for these positions. If we don't get our act together and change that (and they can't import enough international workers), they will be forced to close down or outsource.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
"Suburbs are not where jobs are many of them are, certainly more so than Holyoke and frankly younger people don't want to drive but they do otherwise they'd be buying cars that's certainly news to the dealerships, and the entire auto industry who now caters/markets towards the younger crowd more than any other generation let alone driving them again, what roads have you been driving on?"
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...ulture/561290/
"According to the Federal Highway Administration, the percentage of American 16-year-olds with driver’s licenses was roughly 25 percent in 2014, a steep drop from about 46 percent in 1983. "
that's a pretty big decline. There's no debate that cars keep increasing in price, trucks are nearly 45K now new. Add in access to ride sharing like Lyft and zipcar, buying online, teleconferencing online and it keeps removing the need to drive. Heck I just started a new job last month and they are allowing telecommuting for certain situations.
Again, article does nothing to support your hypothesis. There are many explanations for why driving is down among 16-year-olds, to include ballooning costs of driving, tougher licensing laws in many states; and the fact that fewer high school kids hold PT jobs, and choose to spend their free time on Xbox and Instagram as opposed to "cruising" and going to hang outs spots. But that is 16-year-old KIDS. The focus is on the career and family building, 20-40 y/o set. They are DRIVING, and driving MORE. And those that eschew the automobile, are NOT going to HOLYOKE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Uh..good housing? Are you aware of the concrete issue? Nearly 10% of homes in Longmeadow are going to have to be demoed. 10K homes in Mass fall under it and 25K in CT. This will cost easily billions of dollars. Long story short is that these foundations have materials lead them to breakdown. It's from homes from about 1983. Suburbs have plenty of these but not Holyoke, Springfield, Hartford etc. You cannot tax a house if it cannot be a legal dwelling. So the drain locally will be significant. Local governments don't have the money for this, the states don't and the feds say it isn't an emergency since it happened gradually over 35 years.
Uh, people from Longmeadow are not moving to Holyoke and Springfield. NOT HAPPENING.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Schools? Well why not live in a cheaper area and send the kid to private school? Of course buying in the 128 belt is more of a long term investment. You have eight or so districts that are feeder schools for Harvard so it's like buying your grandkids education ahead of time. But for regular suburbs outside of it.... Shopping? Have you heard of amazon?
I guess if you don't mind paying for school twice. And yes I've heard of Amazon. Doesn't take care of my fresh grocery needs, Lowe's, etc. Some people still like to look and try on things, believe it or not. Having good convenient restaurants nearby is a big for many. Good fitness centers. Good selection of banks. Good youth sports and other activities. Stuff that modern families for all intents and purposes require, and is often lacking in the satellite cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
I wouldn't say I hate suburbs but when it comes down to it there has to be a policy of promoting economic and community growth. If there's extremes it can create much higher traffic and sprawl. I think much of the state is U shaped. You have your affluent communities that frankly can afford to pay for anything on one piece, you have your gateway cities that get state funding on the other side but on the bottom are those that frankly have harder times governing and just don't have the funds to really do anything. Some people like living in cities and want to stay there but will go to cheaper cities. There's evidence that those from Roxbury are going to Brockton. https://www.wgbh.org/news/local-news...ts-to-brockton
So you are saying people are moving from Roxbury to Brockton because they like it there??? Even the article says it's all about affordability.
Comparing Holyoke to Somerville, is when I stop reading.
One of the main differences is that around the Holyoke area there's a lack of jobs. There's a slight similarity because of the desirability of Northampton for "alternative" types, but those types don't have to move to Holyoke. Some may, as long as it stays cheap. But so far, there's still Easthampton and all the other areas surrounding Northampton to absorb these people.
If, by some miracle, a huge job market opened up, and Northampton and surrounding towns were overflowing, people would probably move to Springfield and gentrify Springfield. (I can't believe I'm saying this, because Springfield turned into a complete dump!)
Even if artsy types did flow into Holyoke, you'd need people with regular jobs to support the economy and pay higher rents. I think Holyoke might grow a little bit with the overflow of starving artists from Northampton and Easthampton. But if any place will ever gentrify, it would be Springfield. The bones are there--the remains of a downtown, a beautiful public library and museums in that downtown, the casino, lots of housing--actual houses with yards, Forest Park, closer to the Mass Pike, etc. It was once a thriving city. For as long as I can remember, Holyoke was only a mill town, the Lawrence of the West.
I think there will always have to be a place for poor people. Maybe Holyoke can become a haven for starving artists and for the working poor or the indigent poor. That's all I can foresee for a place like Holyoke.
...people would probably move to Springfield and gentrify Springfield. (I can't believe I'm saying this, because Springfield turned into a complete dump!)
In_newengland, Mdovell always has a courteous if lengthy response to provocative and insulting posts from Rockefeller republican types here on C-D but this slur will rile him up!
One of the main differences is that around the Holyoke area there's a lack of jobs. There's a slight similarity because of the desirability of Northampton for "alternative" types, but those types don't have to move to Holyoke. Some may, as long as it stays cheap. But so far, there's still Easthampton and all the other areas surrounding Northampton to absorb these people.
If, by some miracle, a huge job market opened up, and Northampton and surrounding towns were overflowing, people would probably move to Springfield and gentrify Springfield. (I can't believe I'm saying this, because Springfield turned into a complete dump!)
Even if artsy types did flow into Holyoke, you'd need people with regular jobs to support the economy and pay higher rents. I think Holyoke might grow a little bit with the overflow of starving artists from Northampton and Easthampton. But if any place will ever gentrify, it would be Springfield. The bones are there--the remains of a downtown, a beautiful public library and museums in that downtown, the casino, lots of housing--actual houses with yards, Forest Park, closer to the Mass Pike, etc. It was once a thriving city. For as long as I can remember, Holyoke was only a mill town, the Lawrence of the West.
I think there will always have to be a place for poor people. Maybe Holyoke can become a haven for starving artists and for the working poor or the indigent poor. That's all I can foresee for a place like Holyoke.
Precisely my point. A more simplistic way of putting it is: Not everywhere in the state can gentrify, and Holyoke will be the LAST city to gentrify.
Precisely my point. A more simplistic way of putting it is: Not everywhere in the state can gentrify, and Holyoke will be the LAST city to gentrify.
Nope, the Fitchburg/Leominster/Gardner/Orange cultural tundra rust belt of N Central MA remains stubbornly in last place so far as last place in Mass to gentrify goes. I’d wager you can visit unknown county seats in central Kansas and probably find more nice things. Holyoke has been showing hints of low-level gentrification due to its location next door to the Happy Valley for 20 years or so.
Nope, the Fitchburg/Leominster/Gardner/Orange cultural tundra rust belt of N Central MA remains stubbornly in last place so far as last place in Mass to gentrify goes. I’d wager you can visit unknown county seats in central Kansas and probably find more nice things. Holyoke has been showing hints of low-level gentrification due to its location next door to the Happy Valley for 20 years or so.
I can't rep you again so soon but what you say is probably true. I think Turners belongs in there too. That entire area is lost and nearly forgotten, and for many is even unheard of. Holyoke sounds interesting in comparison.
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