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Old 08-25-2021, 09:47 AM
 
3,808 posts, read 3,100,077 times
Reputation: 3332

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Quote:
Originally Posted by justyouraveragetenant View Post
It's small but more than I thought since the vax is supposed to prevent death. Some claim no one can die if vaccinated. You make condescending assumptions
What’s not clear from the data you presented is whether those ‘vaccinated’ individuals who died actually had a functioning immune system.

It’s entirely possible to be ‘vaccinated’, but not fully ‘immunized’ and therefor not adequately protected. For example, I was recently reading an interview transcript with a John Hopkin’s MD researching immune response amongst the immunocomprised individuals and only 20% of transplant recipients have present antibodies after two rounds of Pfizer/Moderna mRNA vaccinations.

This is also a prime example as to how healthy individuals foregoing the vaccine are placing certain demographics in a no-win situation where they either stop participating in society or take on enormous risk.
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Old 08-25-2021, 09:51 AM
 
Location: The ghetto
17,117 posts, read 8,771,106 times
Reputation: 13188
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
However, both Israel and Pfizer say that efficacy drops off at 6 months.
The studies show the 6 month point. Pfizer 42% and Moderna 76%.

But it's not like this all of a sudden happens on day 180. We don't know when it actually happens. I don't believe we have stats for the 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 month points.
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Old 08-25-2021, 01:28 PM
 
875 posts, read 653,848 times
Reputation: 985
No doubt the 'muh freedoms' will be chest thumping and braying about this one ..... vaccinated at Delta or pay $200 more in corp. monthly health plan, and wear masks indoors, and take weekly covid test.

“The average hospital stay for COVID-19 has cost Delta $50,000 per person,” Bastian said in an employee memo. “This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonatha...h=415127fa1a92
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Old 08-25-2021, 02:41 PM
 
3,808 posts, read 3,100,077 times
Reputation: 3332
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawyer2 View Post
No doubt the 'muh freedoms' will be chest thumping and braying about this one ..... vaccinated at Delta or pay $200 more in corp. monthly health plan, and wear masks indoors, and take weekly covid test.

“The average hospital stay for COVID-19 has cost Delta $50,000 per person,” Bastian said in an employee memo. “This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonatha...h=415127fa1a92
:: golf clap ::
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Old 08-25-2021, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Woburn, MA / W. Hartford, CT
5,975 posts, read 4,957,747 times
Reputation: 4024
Quote:
Originally Posted by YevTK View Post
"the worst performance in the nation" ?. Before making a judgement as to a particular Governor's effectiveness we should wait until this thing is over.

Deaths per 1M:

New Jersey 3,014
New York 2,808
Mississippi 2,741
Massachusetts 2,640
Louisiana 2,606
Rhode Island 2,604
Arizona 2,561
Alabama 2,447
Connecticut 2,336
South Dakota 2,325
Arkansas 2,236
Pennsylvania 2,202
Michigan 2,143
New Mexico 2,138
Indiana 2,127
Georgia 2,101
Illinois 2,075
Nevada 2,062
North Dakota 2,038
South Carolina 2,005
Florida 1,989
You seem to be again, disingenuously, pulling up cumulative statistics on death rates. Right now, Florida is seeing 400+ deaths/day. Nearly all of which are *avoidable* because vaccines are available. When NJ, NY, MA were experiencing high death rates, it was at the beginning of the pandemic. Not only were there no vaccines, much less was known about modes of transmission. Trying to defend the current policies in Florida on the above basis has zero merit.
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Old 08-25-2021, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Woburn, MA / W. Hartford, CT
5,975 posts, read 4,957,747 times
Reputation: 4024
Quote:
Originally Posted by justyouraveragetenant View Post
It's small but more than I thought since the vax is supposed to prevent death. Some claim no one can die if vaccinated. You make condescending assumptions. My point was some claim no one can die if vaccinated. That was the point of my post.
I covered this in a post a long time ago. That number equates to 0.003% of the vaccinated in MA, and the median age at death is 82.5. Just check out the median age of the unvaxxed dying in Florida right now, and get back to us, will you?
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Old 08-25-2021, 08:21 PM
 
199 posts, read 66,116 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by htfdcolt View Post
You seem to be again, disingenuously, pulling up cumulative statistics on death rates. Right now, Florida is seeing 400+ deaths/day. Nearly all of which are *avoidable* because vaccines are available. When NJ, NY, MA were experiencing high death rates, it was at the beginning of the pandemic. Not only were there no vaccines, much less was known about modes of transmission. Trying to defend the current policies in Florida on the above basis has zero merit.
As you know, all states got access to the vaccine at about the same time, so the cumulative data is perfectly legitimate. Or are you arguing that pre-vaccine Florida did a far better job of managing covid than pre-vaccine Massachusetts?

I am a strong proponent of vaccination, I think all eligible should get vaccinated. However, beyond vaccination I think it is too soon to say whether any state's approach to managing covid is better than another. I am not motivated by politics only data. The data is inconclusive.

Florida is in the middle of the pack as far vaccination % goes (23rd of of 50) so it's not clear to me that all Florida deaths are avoidable. Some certainly, but "nearly all"?

Here's another explanation (I don't necessarily believe this but it is plausible). Massachusetts had such a high death rate early in the pandemic that many of the most vulnerable have already died. The vaccines came along and protected the rest so death rates have plunged. Fewer died early on in Florida and so they have more vulnerable people now, vaccination has helped but there is still a lot of "dry tinder" among the most vulnerable.

As you mentioned "disingenuous" - where did you get the "Florida is seeing 400+ deaths/day" from? I can't find any source that agrees with this.

This number must be wrong as the US 7-day average is only around 800 a day.
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Old 08-25-2021, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Cleveland
4,629 posts, read 4,914,669 times
Reputation: 5967
Quote:
Originally Posted by YevTK View Post
As you know, all states got access to the vaccine at about the same time, so the cumulative data is perfectly legitimate. Or are you arguing that pre-vaccine Florida did a far better job of managing covid than pre-vaccine Massachusetts?

I am a strong proponent of vaccination, I think all eligible should get vaccinated. However, beyond vaccination I think it is too soon to say whether any state's approach to managing covid is better than another. I am not motivated by politics only data. The data is inconclusive.

Florida is in the middle of the pack as far vaccination % goes (23rd of of 50) so it's not clear to me that all Florida deaths are avoidable. Some certainly, but "nearly all"?

Here's another explanation (I don't necessarily believe this but it is plausible). Massachusetts had such a high death rate early in the pandemic that many of the most vulnerable have already died. The vaccines came along and protected the rest so death rates have plunged. Fewer died early on in Florida and so they have more vulnerable people now, vaccination has helped but there is still a lot of "dry tinder" among the most vulnerable.

As you mentioned "disingenuous" - where did you get the "Florida is seeing 400+ deaths/day" from? I can't find any source that agrees with this.

This number must be wrong as the US 7-day average is only around 800 a day.
He's trying to argue "Ron DeSantis is the worst, because if he wins the presidency, I'm not sure I'll be able to handle it." That's what he's trying to argue. And he has such little respect for intellectual honesty that he accuses others of being political.

As you mention, Florida is not in the top 20 states with respect to Covid death rate, and that's without any adjustment for their age distribution, which skews old, as everyone knows. This virus hits Florida differently in terms of seasonality than the northern states; that poster is cherry picking Florida at a peak and comparing it to Massachusetts at a lull, because again, he is not here for intellectual honesty or good-faith discussion.

I agree with you that Massachusetts' low death rate recently is mostly because more vulnerable people died early in huge numbers* compared to other states. Thank you for admitting it. If some of the posters here would set aside their egos for a half second, it would be obvious to them, too. I'm also willing to credit relatively high vaccine uptake for a small portion of the difference in current death rate between Massachusetts and northern states with lower vaccine uptake (Indiana is a good example). But the numbers we're talking at that point are so tiny that it makes the potshots at red states look kind of desperate and pitiful.

* I'm not sure if people remember how huge these numbers were. The CDC has an Excel with total deaths from all-causes by death, compared to expected, by state. For the nine weeks between 4/4/20 and 5/30/20, all-cause deaths in Mass. were 70.3% in excess of expected. The equivalent figure for Minnesota was 13.9%. For North Dakota, 9.8%. For Ohio, 9.5%. I'll stop there because I'm sure people get the picture.

Last edited by tribecavsbrowns; 08-25-2021 at 11:08 PM..
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Old 08-25-2021, 10:30 PM
 
8,085 posts, read 5,195,160 times
Reputation: 22680
Quote:
Originally Posted by sawyer2 View Post
No doubt the 'muh freedoms' will be chest thumping and braying about this one ..... vaccinated at Delta or pay $200 more in corp. monthly health plan, and wear masks indoors, and take weekly covid test.

“The average hospital stay for COVID-19 has cost Delta $50,000 per person,” Bastian said in an employee memo. “This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonatha...h=415127fa1a92
You dont think people should have freedom? In the United States of America?

My body. My choice.

Remember that one?
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Old 08-25-2021, 11:01 PM
 
23,067 posts, read 18,206,847 times
Reputation: 10636
Quote:
Originally Posted by LLCNYC View Post
You dont think people should have freedom? In the United States of America?

My body. My choice.

Remember that one?

I agree to a point. I also think employers should have the freedom to employ who they want. And customers/patients should have a choice of where they receive care. If I or my family has to choose between a facility where 100% of their staff is vaccinated vs. one where 50% is, I am choosing the prior one 7 days a week. My and my family's health/safety is more important than the "feelings" of those who can't work at facility #1 because they refuse to get the shot for whatever reason. They can go work at facility #2 if they want, which likely has lower compensation, lesser working conditions and a higher chance of getting sick. That is how the free market works.
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